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I don't have anything to offer but support and kudos...

...as I am realllly boring when it comes to fetishes, but I just have to say how impressed I am with your use of your intelligence - so many people *are* intelligent , but don't use it. Daoist principles at 19? It was all jibberish to me at that age.

What I've noticed in myself is that there are many and random things that trigger a purely sexual response from my brain/body. But the best lovemaking I have ever experienced would have seemed like really boring sex if anyone were to have witnessed it. I used to think I couldn't come when on the bottom (I'm female), but a couple of weeks ago, my partner and I had a truly magnetic sexual experience. I don't know how else to describe it - perhaps "sacred?" There just was something so mystical and magical about the whole thing, almost psychedelic in how it affected me, feeling colors, tasting touches & the like. And there I was, on the bottom the whole time.

What I've concluded is that there is lovemaking and fucking. Lovemaking isn't about satisfying any urges. It's about just BEing. Something happens that is so mysterious to me, an opening up of my very soul. Fucking is fun, too, but it is purely sexual, and my soul doesn't have much, if anything, to do with it. There's also just not the rapport that there is with lovemaking. It's all about satisfying the urge.

Fetishes seem to me to be about arousal and satisfying the urge. If you can find balance and soul satisfying connection with your partner that way, good for you. For me it would be the former.

Thanks for sharing your story

I, too, admire all your progress, and I hope you will continue to share your experience.

My thought is simply that you don't *know* if the fetish would go away if you stop using it as a way of raising dopamine for a lengthy time. It may. It's just a brain loop that is constantly overactivated. It's not really valuable even though you treasure it. Smile Have you read Doidge's book about brain plasticity?

Remember, dopamine is the drug here, not orgasm. So when you "seek" for those images, you're getting high on dopamine...and reinforcing the strength of the fetish. The fact that you do it for hours and lose yourself completely shows how powerful this dopamine "drug" is. This is perfectly normal.

You're wise to let go of all feelings of shame, as that increases the strength of the response, but maybe, instead of trying to incorporate the fetish, you should let it go. NOT because it is "bad." But because your brain is over-sensitized to this trigger - and so cues related to it are grabbing your attention with...gusto. Smile As Penny says, such triggered feelings are purely "sexual" (dopamine driven) and very demanding and distracting. And again, it's not the fetish that is drawing you...it's the dopamine. Think of the fetish itself as a pesky cartoon.

Maybe if you put your attention of looking for that deeper connection with your mate, you'll find a neurochemical state that's far more deeply satisfying. Have you looked at this book? http://www.reuniting.info/tantric_sex_for_men_richardson

Or explore Satz's Buddhist approach of turning your mind to compassion for whomever you see who triggers the fetish...until you can see the person instead of her...whatever-turns-you-on.

I'm no expert in fetishes, although it fascinates me that people have managed to leave them behind by rewiring their brains, so take what feels right here, and leave the rest. Wink


you sound like a lovely man, and I'm glad you're open to another relationship.

Thanks, too, for sharing some of your pics. That was fascinating, and the women are very beautiful...although I suspect that Gary, for instance, would still prefer them without ornamentation. Wink (He doesn't even like it when I wear make-up, and much prefers me without clothing. *blush*)

Maybe you could have the best of both worlds by staying away from the pics for a good three months, just to let your arousal pathway relax a bit, while you strengthen other sources of good feelings in your life.

I have this goofy theory that fetish pathways can almost totally evaporate when we stay away from them for a long while...because (I believe) they aren't "hardwired" in the same way fundamental sexual arousal pathways are. In other words, although the fetishes hijack the brain by wiring up to the reward circuitry, they aren't the wiring you showed up on the planet with...which is - in most of us -set to wire up to real mating opportunities (and naked goddesses??).

Anyway, if you test this theory by giving the bejeweled goddesses a rest for 2-3 months, let me know how it goes. Meanwhile, keep us posted on anything you want to share. I'd bet money that you'll find a workable solution. You seem determined.

*big hug*

* Warning - may contain some

* Warning - may contain some triggers *

Short version: I think a lot of fetishes are natural. Just be honest with women about it and find women who are turned on by wearing jewellery - I'm sure there are tons around - look how much time women spend talking about it and shopping for it! Just make sure that the only time you're actually orgasming to it is when it's on a real, live woman that you're having sex with, rather than pictures that you're jacking off to (if you are). Once your brain gets the message that it's a fetish that enhances real women's attractiveness for you, rather than something sexual in itself, it may lose its excitement except in the context of a real woman, which is what you want...

Longer version:

Hmm.. I have a rather different take on it. This is only based on my observations of the world around me, but I'll share those observations, so that you can see where I'm coming from.

First, I think we should consider whether fetishes are 1) learned and entirely arbitrary, 2) learned, but with some kind of innate predisposition towards certain fetishes 3) innate. Of course, different fetishes may fall into different categories, but I think each category is plausible for certain fetishes:

1) Learned and entirely arbitrary. Let's say I have a great sexual experience once with a woman who happened to be wearing red pants. Now I have a thing for women wearing red pants. Sure, why not?
2) Learned, but with some innate leanings towards certain fetishes. Let's say I have a fetish for women in high heels (many men do). Well, high heels do tend to make the legs look leaner, so perhaps if we are predisposed to enjoy leaner-looking legs, then in that sense, we are also predisposed to enjoy women in high heels. So it's still learned through association with an attractive woman, as in 1), but it's less arbitrary, because it enhances attraction
3) Innate. This might seem like a tough sell, as it might seem unlikely that we have sexual desires relating to specific objects. However, we have fears of certain specific objects, such as snakes and spiders. Why not attractions too? Many men have a fetish for leather. It's of course speculative, but clothing has been a human necessity for long enough that we can imagine perhaps that we have evolved a preference for women who have enough survival ability that they are able to somehow come by animal skins that are in good condition, and are able to tailor clothes to fit themselves. It may seem a bit of a reach, but I think it's very possible that some fetishes are genetic. I would be tempted to speculatively put your adornment fetish in that category, since adornment has been a human activity for so long, and the ability to find rare or valuable adornments may correlate well with healthy genes (it implies plenty of energy to find rare metals etc, good eyes for picking out rare items and good hand-eye coordination for the micro-work necessary to make the adornments, good self-defense skills for guarding one's adornments against someone else who might want to take them from you etc etc). All very speculative, but who knows?

My own experience with my own fetishes is that indulding in them with a partner who is also into them is a huge turn on and tons of fun.. At first I was shy about mentioning them, because I thought they seemed weird, but once I started getting them out there, I found plenty of women who were into them too. I can almost guarantee that there are many women out there for whom adornment is not just fun, but a real turn on - look how much time women spend shopping for and talking about this kind of thing! I think maybe you're just being shy about your fetish because you feel it's weird. I don't think it's weird at all - embrace it! It turns you on - be upfront about it and enjoy it.

Having said that, I think where fetish becomes problematic is that it can get divorced from women. Rather than just enhancing a woman's attractiveness, it starts to become an end in itself. The way out of that is the same way out of the P problems we're all having. See real women as the only source of sexual excitement. I don't know if you're whacking off after your online sessions, but if so, stop! Also, don't look at pictures of women wearing jewellery, only the real thing. If you're disciplined about it, your brain will re-learn that the only place it's going to get sexual pleasure is from women, and if they're wearing jewellery, so much the better.

Thank you!

Marnia and likeanidiot, thanks so much for your replies. I am sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Both your of your replies were seriously insightful and gave pertinent helpful advice. It is wonderful that people on this community bbs have the compassion to help other's with their issues, it really helps people to make progress! Thank you and likeanidiot for helping me and others

likeanidiot, what you wrote is seriously cool and what I want to work towards. Yes, it does contain some triggers for me and I won't go into too much detail here, but I hope to evolve into having a cool and integrated expression of my mysterious jewelry fascination/pleasure into my sexuality / sexual life.

Marnia, you are right about the arousal pathways relaxing. I've had the experience many times before, either when I had too full a life to spend time surfing for pictures of the bejeweled Tibetan ladies, or when I took action to somehow shut myself away from the chance to websurf. Always, the free time and clear mind meant those were very good times! Seeing formerly highly stimulating pictures after a break, there was way less of a stimulus than there used to be (at least not until I started trying to think about them)

I have not completely stopped surfing for these pics. But I have moderated it substantially. I have had longer breaks between sessions. I’ve had one session or so a week. Still too much, perhaps, but the stimulus from it has been far less. This is because of mental work I’ve been doing, particular related to subconscious beliefs that kept this interest as a fetish that I wasn’t integrated with. I am working on integrating my interest in jewelry with the rest of my persona on both conscious and subconscious levels. I'll get back to this in a moment.

Recently I have been productive and happy, completely different to the nasty spot I was in when I originally posted this message. By the way, when I posted the original messages I hadn't ejaculated for a long time (several weeks) but I was being continually pulled into bad habits by a searing arousal pathway. The process of writing my second message in this thread where I explained about my interest, and the details of how expensive and so on the jewelry that those Tibetan women wear in those pics got my arousal pathway glowing even hotter, and I eventually ended up orgasming not once but twice, not whilst touching myself but by kind of grinding against the blanket when I crashed (in order to get away from the computer). So, that was kind of the low point that came after the original message, and probably a big reason why I didn't reply sooner.

So, some very important things happened recently, which have led to very positive changes in my lifestyle, including a more balanced and integrated sexuality. These are:

*Very* pertinent to my issue with my (former ) fetish for spectacularly bejeweled girls... through recent explorations of meditation and psychology, discovering that I had a strong beliefs like
'I shouldn't take pleasure in seeing pretty girls with jewelry. This is bad. This is wrong. This is a waste of time. I should be ashamed of liking this',
I continue to invite new beliefs to make themselves at home, such as 'This is good. This is beautiful. This brings me joy and can bring other people joy. I deserve to feel the joy that I get from bejeweling pretty girls'

(This is mostly thanks to coming across the works of Nathaniel Brandon (the founder and leader of the Self Esteem movement in Psychology - a practicing Psychiatrist with a PhD) plus equally coming across Buddhist teacher Shinzen Young, who gives the best, most accessible and scientific approach to Buddhism I've ever heard. His 'The Science of Enlightenment' is fantastic.

So, when I have surfed for new images of Tibetan girls wearing a mountain of priceless jewels, there has been a diminished arousal from it, and it has been easier to pull out of before it starts causing too much damage to my schedule, lifestyle, mindset etc. Not subconsciously condemning myself for it has been key.

I've now gone 6 weeks without ejaculating. I have masturbated lightly at times. I need to carry with meditation practice, and super helpful Self Esteem psychology from Dr Brandon. Finally, I have had some seeds of a romantic relationship, although it might not work out. (It’s complicated). Yes, I would really like some romance, busy as I as uni term has restarted now. And I now believe that the deep part of my brain that loves certain types of jewelry on pretty girls can be used to bring happiness to my future honey.

As it’s midnight, I’d better get ready for bed. Thank you so much for all you do for everyone.

So glad to hear

you're finding the right pieces of the puzzle to achieve a good balance for you. That's what really matters.

Good luck with that romance. Let us know if it takes off. Wink

Ready for the Arousal Pathways to Die Away.

Hi again. I'm now at a point where I'm ready for the arousal pathways and arousal response that constitute the above described 'fetish' to wither and die away. The language the comes into my head is like "the arousal response is awful/wrong". Not awful or wrong is the 'original sin' sense. But awful and wrong in that the arousal response goes totally against my self interest. I'm ready for it to die away.

(in the next two paragraphs I mostly summarise things said before so you might prefer to skip from here....)

Actually, my arousal response to porn was significantly cut down almost ten years ago (in my late teens). After a porn surfing session (searching for somewhat extreme material) which lastest several hours (which I should have used for studying, or things that are leisure to my happiness) and culminated in orgasm, I was left feeling disgust and betrayal towards the hunger for porn and the arousal response. In fact, in that post-orgasmic frustration, I remember feeling in the pit of my stomach that I might be better (happier) in the long-run if I cut off my balls. I didn't do that. But I never related to porn quite the same way. I am in a similar place now - really had enough of the arousal response to jewelry, and welcome it to die away.

A year or two after that day where disgust drove me to surf much less for porn, I met a young and devout yoga teacher who later became a good friend - he taught a yoga retreat in Thailand which I took part in. One lunch-time he explained about Daoist and Tantric ideas about male orgasm being a loss of spiritual energy from the body and so on, and being someone who had many times felt low and lathargic following masturbation this made sense to me, I tried it, and ever since have masturbated/orgasmed tens of time less (average one orgasm a month?) than when I was a teenager. Despite that outward harmony, inwardly my arousal response and craving aimed at bejewelled girl remained. Partly beliefs that openly appreciating girls' accessories is weird, and something that other people won't accept led me to keep a lid on the mental craving when I was in public, but it also made it more seductive when I felt I was alone to myself. But earlier this year things started to change, and I posted some of the things on this board.

(...until here)

Last week I ordered some prints of a couple hundred digital photos and have decorated the walls in my room with them. A bunch I took myself whilst travelling in Japan, a bunch of beautiful photographs that I found on the internet of natural scenes, animals, people around the world... and a bunch of the most 'interesting' pictures I have of beautiful Tibet women wearing huge inheritances/family life savings of spectacular and expensive ornaments (I posted a few of these in my 2nd post above). Aware that sticking these on the wall above my bed could be stimulating and arousing, I still continued, because I believe that the arousal response and the craving that comes with it is not a permanent, inherent feature of my psychology/physiology. I believe it can be purified, or die away. The reason I have stuck the photos up is that it forces me to either change, or to be constantly overstimulation (which is unacceptable for various reasons).

Suffice to say, I wasn't instantly different after sticking up the 50 or so photos that were all highly stimulating when I first found each of them over the last few years of collecting. I stuck the photos up with my mind consciously calm, but under the surface hormones were pumping away. I took a lie down and dozed, with interesting things happening subconsciously (I'm afraid I can't give more detail because they were subconscious. An hour or two later, I get up from the doze, partly willing to just get on with my tasks. But I'm helluva stimulated and I decide, just get it over with - masturbate and have an orgasm (this was easily enough accomplished). Then I went quiet. Hormone balances changed. After I few minutes my emotions are saying "I have had enough". The feeling of disgust and loathing of the stimulus response, which I had felt as a teenager after watching porn, swept through me. I felt deeply that this arousal response to ornamented beautiful girls is awful, wrong, harming me.

Components of the arousal response that I can identify are (say I'm somewhere and out of the blue I see a girl I find attractive wearing accessories that I really like, and the following arousal stimulus has tended to happen):

-My mind narrows it's attention only onto the subject - I go inside my head, become less engaged with my senses.
-A feeling of shifting or tightening in my perennium/genetalia
-Sometimes a driving force/voice near the centre of my brain encouraging me to be more aroused, to create positive feedback. If I get really aroused, this same place in my brain will tell me to go and masturbate

The third part - whatever brain gland(s) that's part of the sexual nervous system has been much more active since I my beliefs started to shift (beliefs that interest or pleasure in girls' accessories in my head was something unreasonable and unrealisable, basically had no place in real relationships and socially). Believing now that I can enjoy ornamentation some how, and that it's OK, or good to, those parts of my brain were taken off their leash**. That resulted in more compulsive thinking - more attention to girls and stimulus sources in my environment --- but I've had enough! I cannot achieve my potential in relationships or anything else with this over-sensitivity.

However I am not taking the photos of ornamented Tibetan ladies off of my wall, I believe that having them there will force me to be aroused often and ultimately masturbate a lot, or to get so disgusted and fed up with the arousal response that the pathways die away. But former in unacceptable for me, it must be the latter, as quickly as possible. I want a Karezza / kindness / affection based relationship, I am unfortuantely now in one but I need to start by getting of the dopamine rollercoaster, raising Oxytocin levels.

Does anyone have any advice on techniques or practices to cut out arousal response and it's roots? I need mental weed killer. I sense that feeling fed up and disgusted with it is a good start and I want to back these feelings up with other action. For example, some NLP teachers like Tony Robbins have an effective belief change exercise called the Christmas Carol or Scrooge, which I am going to try. Any other tips or candid comments greatly appreciated :)

**An interesting gauge of what is changing in my brain are the changes in the content of my dreams. Until the belief shift corresponding to going from alienation towards integration of my interest in girls' ornamentation, the only dreams where it would come up would be ocassional wet dreams. The onset would be very sudden and I would instantly become aroused and orgasm. I would see girls such as in the photos above, covered in masses of coral and gold, and I would come very quickly. The last few months though the appearance of pretty ornamented girls in my dreams has been more common, and much more long lasting, but also much less acute - it hasn't resulted in orgasm, and would subside away. There was more of a sense of friendliness. Previously in the moment before orgasm, the feeling in the wet dreams was like a powerful but almost alien erotic force.

Oh and by the way

If anyone is interested in checking out some of the Tibetan ladies wearing spectacular inheritances of ornaments (and I find them interesting of other levels, despite the unwanted arousal they bring me), here's a gallery of some of the best photos I've found :)

Always interesting to

hear more of your story. In general, masturbation cues are not helpful in allowing a brain pathway to die. But nor is making yourself "awful or wrong," so it'll be interesting to hear how things go.

Progress and changes, still feeling guilt and shame

Will write in bullet point style, for brevity / waffle reduction Wink

About my interest in the ceremonial dresses from eastern Tibet:
-I think I can make something interesting out of it, something interesting or useful to other people.
-I am targeting having a healthy interest/hobby. In a way I am a kind of expert on these dresses. I've got a huge library of photos, and have all sorts of knowledge about them that almost nobody else has. For example I've started to realise about all different regional styles, which are many and varied.
-I've been sharing what I've found on an online beading community, and have been able to discuss with some learned people.
-And I've been learning both about beads and Tibetan jewellery, as well as Tibetan politics and current issues.
-I wonder whether I can make a coffee table book showing the dresses I showed above, and give the profits to schools that teach Tibetan culture. (I am going to China to study Chinese from next June. After 1 year of studying I could goto Tibet and theoretically start such a project)

-The dopamine reaction is being eroded. I am getting less excited by the images. I can't remember the last time I had an orgasm. Properly two or three months ago. I had a bit of a wet dream a few weeks ago where just a little bit was released.

-I still spend many hours a week doing things related to this interest. The time I spend researching and searching is probably unchanged, but it is definitely feeling more constructive. But I still go on reading or searching for much longer than I originally intend.
-As such, I still feel (and think) that this is an obsession.
-I dream, or aspire to be able to use the word "passion" or just "hobby", rather than "obsession" for this interest. The reason I use the latter is because I have guilt and shame, which I feel in my solar plexus as a glob of dark emotion, sticky like old chewing gum on clothes. I worry about what people think of me, spending so much time collecting photos and enjoying the spectacles of the bejewelled costumes.
-The dopamine reaction is clearly intertwined with the guilt and shame. Which one causes which I am not sure, they seem to arise together.

I really need to be rid of the guilt and shame, and am considering doing psychotherapy.

Sounds like

it will be an amazing book. Good luck with the project.

What are you doing to socialize with real people? Sometimes that's all we tribal primates need to gain perspective and feel a lot more balanced.

Thanks for checking in. And good luck with therapy if you go that route. Keep us posted.

Yeah, the human contact thing!

I just got back from Japan to the UK, where I had been doing university exchange.

I am now doing my master's year in London, and have much contact with smart and intersting people during the day. It's engineering so the people I work with on a daily basis are guys. But through student societies and friends parties and so on I meet a lot of attractive young women. I am quite good at flirting and creating attraction from the women I am with, at least a lot better than I used to be. Of course, I want to get much better, I have a fear about getting to touching and kissing, mainly because it's been so long since I successfully started a relationship.

I haven't successfully gotten into a relationship since I broke up with my girlfriend of 3 years in Sep 2010, although not for lack of trying. First, about my previous relationship - she was a gorgeous Japanese girl - when I would wake up in bed and see her, I would always without fail be amazed at how beautiful she was. I met her the first time I lived in Japan. I had been long-distance with her since Jan 2010 (we were together in Japan for 6 months, long distance 9 months, together for a year in the UK, then long distance again for 9 months). She was 5 years older than me (I'm 27). We used to fight alot but our relationship got progressively better. The thing is, she wants marriage ASAP. I'm totally not at that stage, still continuing my education, travelling around the world learning langauges etc. We are still very close, she travelled half way across Japan to see me off at the airport a few weeks ago.

So yeah, now is most definitely the time to be connecting to beautiful and interesting women while I still am at college (this is my final year).

While I was in Japan, I made some mistakes...
-3 times I thought I was getting into relationships, onto to find out that the woman was unavailable. In all 3 cases with the girl, we had hung out and gone to meals, she had allowed me to walk with my arm around her or hold hands, then only later I found out she had a boyfriend. This weirded me out and kind of burned me. Was it my fault for not asking first?
-Meanwhile, there were other nice girls around, who were clearly interested in having a relationship with me, but because they were much shier I stopped pursuing them.
-In each case with the 3 women above, the 3rd one being the most painful and hard to get over, I had subconsciously been idealising them, and idealising having a relationship with them. This part was most definitely 100% my fault.
In the 3rd case, after having cuddled for 3 hours in a coffee shop with my classmate , and then next weekend again cuddled for 3 hours around my apartment while watching a movie, I took it for granted that things were going to be together, and went mentally into a state like being wrapped up in cotton wool. And then when she suddenly said she had a boyfriend, I consciously tried to take it in my stride, but unconsciously had a lot of sadness that didn't go away. We had communication breakdown, I think we both got very funny in our heads, but we were in the same research lab... I no longer wanted to go in, and felt like I had lost friends there (I was paranoid about what she might have told the other students there - I was the only foreigner in a group of 20 or so Japanese). I sorted it out with her right before I left, and we are finally friends now. I think she was being a bit like a child and didn't know what she was doing with my feelings, at the same time I shouldn't have been so in need of her attention. I felt like I couldn't talk to all the Japanese people I was working with about it, all of our mutal friends. In the end I finally did and things sorted themselves out.

ANYWAY I learned a lot about myself :)

It stopped, other things grow. Growing pains.

Another stream-of-consciousness-y post follows. I wanted to contribute to other people's threads in this forum, but again found myself writing about my own thing. Here we go....

I am spending more and more time with women. Most of my long term friends are guys, because of my engineering course. I just got back to the UK, and because I don't have many female friends who I can meet easily in London on a random night, I am making new female friends. It's going quite well. I am trying to eat out for lunch and dinner as many times as possible with friends, male or female.

That fetish thing simply hasn't been coming up.

In the various stages of my life since becoming an adult, I have usually had one thing that I have tried to focus my free time on and develop. In the past these things have included martial arts, earning money through part-time work, language study, or university extra-curricular groups.

I decided that right now, during this 8 months left I have of college, I am gonna focus on male-female relationships.

I'm talking to my new female friends on Facebook chat, and for the last few weeks have gone out to bars / events / parties to meet new people once or twice a week.

I'm doing an introductory massage course this weekend (tomorrow and the next day)

My mother was abused as a child by her father (my grandfather) and because she was scared of all men, she raised me to be a passive and mild child, who was submissive and supportive to women. She also told me many times when I was young that sex was more or less wrong, and that I shouldn't discuss it with women. It took me a long time to get over that stuff. Recently I have been overcompensating for my former submissiveness by being really hyper and high energy. That got me new experience at breaking through old boundaries. But I ended up being a bit of an annoying asshole. I realised this clearly today. What about just having a normal conversation?

After I realised that, I spent the next 6 hours having normal conversations on and offline with male and female friends. I explained the same point in the previous paragraph to one of women. I arranged lunch with three of the women I spoke to this evening.

I haven't masturbated in any way for about 2 weeks I think, and no orgasm for 2 or 3 months. As I said in previous posts, no orgasms and masturbation makes me feel really great. It's the best way I know, and it what I'm sticking to.

I don't know where I'm headed. I know I want some kind a relationship, I want to connect and cuddle and spend quality time with women (or a woman). Learning karezza on the one hand, or learning to give women lots of orgasms on the other , I don't really know what I should be learning. Depends on what the women I am with want, I suppose. Right now, I am not with any women.

Another thing that may have caused me all sorts of problems is that so many times I have become expectant of getting into a relationship with a woman. So many times that happens. It has never ended in a relationship, just in me getting attached and then massively disappointed. If anyone can suggest what that's about, I'd be fascinated to hear.

What makes me most nervous is how to start a physical relationship with a woman. I'm really scared of it. Last time I sucessfully started a physical relationship was 4 years ago.

I really admire your courage

This is a big, healthy step. I suspect the relationship question will take care of itself as you get more comfortable talking with women. Often *they* have some ideas for initiating intimacy, too. Wink

Have you looked into any of the pick up artist site materials? Some of it is good; some of it is garbage. Rockhardington has some thoughts on some useful sites. It might provide a good balance to your mother's coaching, so you can find and express your strong, healthy inner male. You can send him a private message here: http://www.reuniting.info/user/2763

Keep us posted on your progress. Very exciting!

Quick reply about pick-up artist materials

Hi Marnia, yes I have read and watched quite a bit of so called 'PUA' stuff, as you say, some is good and some is garbage.

I think the best teachers in that scene/community have been trying to detach themselves from term 'pick-up' and re-identify as men's dating advice, men's relationship advice coaches etc, in order to jettison the manipulative, inauthentic techniques they used to teach. David Deangelo is an important example (I believe he's the financial successful guy in the community, and he also brought so many people in that community into prominence by having them as guest speakers on his programs). In Deangelo's early programs, he had identified a lot of mistakes that men were making, and already had loads of experience with self-help, NLP, etc., but he himself and the guest speakers on his early programs were tinged with misogyny and taught manipulative ideas and thinking. But he seems to have become vastly enlightened over time, his program Man Transformation is inspiring and profound in many places, and he and other speakers in it are clearly trying to atone for mistakes they made in teaching men to be manipulative.

I will check out Rockhardington's posts later this weekend.