Just starting type question...

Submitted by scabbott on
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My wife and I have been reading Peace. I have "finished" it, she will soon be caught up. We did not come by the book due to sexual disappointment but I had heard of Karezza somehow and bought both books via Amazon.

We have been married for over 12 years and have 4 fantastic children. Sex (conventional) is the best it has ever been and it has always been very good. I have a fair degree of control even normally able to maintain it through some rather intense full body orgasms with female ejaculation without ejaculating myself. I personally have always received most of my enjoyment from the experience of watching her go nuts rather than my personal orgasm which is nothing at all by comparison to hers. After having read your book, I can see many of the potential negative symptoms of orgasm in myself particularly. But not so much in my wife. Below is her description of what hers feels like...

"Extremely powerful electical currents going through my whole body, multiple streams of gushing fluid release (soaks the bed so we often go to the floor), and an overwhelmingly irresistable compulsion to scream. Sometimes it is a feeling like I'm going down on a huge roller coaster."

I am wondering if she might already be experiencing the type of orgasm that is non-depletive. She is amazingly responsive for a good 24 hours after as well. I am hard enough to deal with at times that when we do fight I have normally provoked her enough that her reactions would probably not require any hormonal issues. She is a great woman.

We will be starting the Exchanges soon and in preparation we have been avoiding orgasm successfully, but I need to be clear as to whether we should be resisting her responses. Based on my description would you call that a genital orgasm? Seems far beyond that to me. Some additional info, My wife was a non-dating virgin when we got married and has never even masturbated before except with me present. Her whole vagina region will swell and kind of "push out" in the lead up and she will go into this state with ejaculation fluids just with foreplay and touching her nipples then really takes off upon the main event. The female ejaculation thing didn't start till I heard it was possible having purused a book encountered briefly when traveling. Then, I remembered our honeymoon when we stopped lovemaking several times because she felt like she needed to pee and of course resisted it.

My concern is this...I am (now freshly very aware of this from reading your book) very biological and visual. I have had issues with pornography and looking around. Prior to marriage, early on I had been with quite a few women, then committed spiritually and seemed to cut off that side of things successfully until marriage. My wife is clearly the most amazing woman I have ever been with by leaps. Yet, conventional sex reawakened my biology patterns and though I could never complain, I found myself wandering mentally, in dreams, and via porn when I'd never trade my wonderful wife for anyone in the world.

Ok, the concern is coming...I see this method described in Peace potentially able to help keep me out of my biology state (like the period before marriage where I had even purified my dreams where in them I would resist advances) by lovemaking taking on a different dynamic thus not essentially reinforcing what in a different context would be very negative behaviour. While at the same time cultivating deep intimate relationship with my wife in a "touchy feely" sort-of way that would extend far beyond the bedroom which I'm quite confident my wife would very much appreciate because that has never been my specialty. I believe the hang-over dynamic may be very much in play with me and if so that is a major benefit because I must have those 2 week waves sometimes syncing together causing tidal wave issues at times.

Finally, here's the concern... Despite my wife's willingness to do this for the desirable advantages stated above, I am concerned that for her sexually she could get less from the experience. Although, I think she is assuming already she will get less sexually but the relational advantages may potentially make for a more than compensating net gain in her mind.

Please address the stated and implied concerns you may perceive. I have considered just applying things on my side as far as genital orgasm avoidance goes. Doing all the exchanges and seeking to shift both my thinking and internal wiring while having her continue her much higher level of natural response.

What do you think?

I need some clarity on what should be allowed to just naturally flow and what is to be resisted if we do proceed together. I just don't want to mess her up sexually in any way by stopping-up a spring whose natural fresh water is so nourishing. I must also admit that I really would personally and selfishly miss her responsiveness which I find so appealing.

If there is any additional recommended reading that would be helpful please let us know.

What a nice problem to have!

Thanks for your beautiful letter. I'm very impressed by your open mind. Here are my thoughts on the issues you raise. I share them as a "fellow traveller," not a sexual guru. And I share them in no particular order.

First, the fact that she stays affectionate and energetic for a while after orgasm doesn't mean that conventional orgasm isn't causing emotional waves in your relationship. When I used to have regular orgasm, I noticed that I sometimes stayed up for 4-5 days afterward. However, as I began to experiment with avoiding orgasm, I noticed that when I did have one the worst part of the hangover for me was actually in the second week afterward. Others on the forum have noticed that the worst part is at the end of the first week.

In other words, men and women are a bit different in how they experience this hangover (indeed each individual is somewhat different). Men may roll over and snore, while women are blissed out for a few days...but I, at least, never escaped the post-orgasmic roller coaster...which would almost always shift my perception of my partner for the worse...and, of course, make me less than my usual charming self (to put it mildly...). I did not always take it out on my partner...sometimes this temporary sense of depletion showed up in my life as financial trouble, unexpected drama at work, illness, and so forth. Our thoughts, feelings and expectiations do shape our experience of the physical plane, after all.

Rather than try to figure out who is causing the problems when, I think it would be good to see your lovemaking like a balloon. It is something you do together, at an energetic level. And you may find that, overall, you feel better if you don't "pop" it. Here's what one of our visitors said:

I just wanted to share a comment my husband made: He said making love is like inflating a balloon. Having an orgasm is like popping the balloon whereas if you finish without an orgasm it is like you are a balloon which takes several days to gradually deflate, leaving you much longer to enjoy the inflated feeling.

(Like I have mentioned before I love how even though he does not acknowledge any relationship harmony effects through this style of lovemaking, or anything wrong with orgasm, he prefers it because it simply feels better after.)

http://www.reuniting.info/testimonials/2006/orgasm_versus_no_orgasm

Since you're interested in the Karezza flavor of this practice, note that there are two Karezza books reproduced completely, for free, at this site: http://www.reuniting.info/resources/free_online_text_karezza_male_contin...

Also, one of them, written by a man who was a doctor (died in 1940), has two chapters in answer to your question, which you might find comforting:

14. DOES THE WOMAN NEED THE ORGASM?
http://www.reuniting.info/karezza_method_lloyd/womans_need_for_orgasm

15. THE WOMAN'S SHOCK
http://www.reuniting.info/karezza_method_lloyd/womans_shock

He rightly points out that if one's chief focus is love for one's partner, then sex is purely secondary. This, he notes, makes it even more delicious. It seems that perhaps your wife has found that naturally. You, however, mention that you are a bit "hooked" on her pleasure. This is natural, but as you apparently recognize, her dramatic orgasm can easily be something you try to "get" in the bedroom...which can raise your dopamine, make you "hungry," and throw you into an addictive cycle. This moves you away from the more lasting, but calmer, satisfaction possible when you're just focused on giving and nurturing your wife with your wonderful male energy.

The Taoists report a phenomenon called a "valley orgasm," which is a total relaxation experience of merging in an altered state. I suspect, although I cannot prove, that it is the only "non-depleting" orgasm (when the full effects over the next two weeks are taken into account), even though the explosive orgasm may keep your wife "fired up" for a few days.

Finally, this week a reader shared a link to a tantric yoga site about a situation much like yours (except that the woman was apparently clear that she didn't want to give up conventional orgasm yet). He suggests that when she is ready, she may hear a spiritual call to conserve and redirect her sexual energy, too. (http://www.aypsite.org/T50.html) I'm not saying that this is what you and your wife are feeling, but if you think it might be, try honoring that possibility for a while. Who knows? Maybe you'll find something even better...or at least another alternative that you find equally satisfying and more harmonious.

After all, you can always go back to what you've been doing.

Good luck!