♥How to have a karezza sexual exchange without intercourse...?

Submitted by ravenna on
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I'm sorry if this has been talked about before. If so, please point me to the right thread. Also there's a lot of extraneous information, and my question isn't entirely in one topic, so tell me if this should be moved to a different section of the forum (or if I should separate my questions into different threads).

Some background first:
One morning, perhaps 2 and a half weeks ago, my boyfriend and I partook in one of our typical sexual encounters that ended with him orgasming. He noticed that it greatly affected him in a negative way (he mostly described it as feeling depressed). Both of us had noticed this change in him in the past. This time, he decided to look it up on the internet. We found a website that talked a lot about the dopamine highs and lows, the Coolidge effect, and such. Everything it said made a lot of sense to both of us and explained a lot (about how he feels after orgasms and, also, about a lot of the turbulence our relationship had suffered previously). The website also mentioned karezza, tantra, sacred sex, and things about sexual energy. We decided to try out the some of the ideas the website presented. We both decided to try to stop having orgasms. We already included a fair amount of bonding behaviors in our daily lives (mostly because I naturally express affection mostly through physical gestures like hugs, random affectionate smiles, massages, laying together, etc.), but we decided to try to enhance that aspect of our relationship too (one example of this is: the site said things about skin contact and such, so we started sleeping with less clothes on and closer together). We've had trouble sticking to the "slow and without intent to arouse" part of karezza. It's only been a couple weeks, so maybe it's to be expected that we're just getting used to abstaining from orgasming and aren't quite ready to quit edging or the more frenzy-ish heated type of encounters. I worry about doing these types of things, as I've read that edging can produce the same chemical effects as orgasming. Also, that your partner's orgasm (or the thrill of causing them to edge) can become kind of a hook in a similar way to what orgasming used to be. I'd really love to eventually get to the point where it's all about giving, and comforting, and loving, and just being with each other. Some other background information (in case it's helpful): He's 22, I'm 17. He's had a porn addiction since puberty. He didn't use any once we got together, except for a few times when he got very depressed and thought things were going bad with us. Though, he seemed not to have much trouble stopping when I asked him to do so (he even wanted to stop). The only time he's missed it since is once when he went through a very depressed period. Following that depressed time, we had a couple weeks where our relationship went very well and things were amazing between us. Then we discovered karezza, and things have improved even more. I bet, once we get to doing more true karezza, and not just orgasm abstaining, things may get even better.

To the main point: I don't know much about what karezza is supposed to be exactly. But, as far as I can tell, it often, if not mostly, includes sexual intercourse. We're both virgins (and I probably want to stay one until I am married). So, I'm wondering what kinds of things can replace that intercourse exchange (I'm also quite interested in the energy related aspects of that, if anyone knows much about that). I've never really learned if things like oral sex or touching the genitals in an arousing way is karezza or not. I would think not, because, as far as my understanding goes, karezza is supposed to be done without the intent to arouse. But, does this mean that a virginal couple attempting to do karezza must completely avoid genital-related things, except in a slow/unmoving and comforting way? If so, it seems my boyfriend does not find that satisfying enough. He has blatantly told me that he doesn't want to stop those sorts of things. He has said that maybe we could stop the stimulation earlier and earlier (meaning further and further away from when we think we'll orgasm) until we're no longer edging. Thus, in that way, get used to it. But, I'm unsure if any stimulation that's not intercourse or slow and with the intention to comfort is acceptable with karezza. I'm not worried about "sticking strictly to a method", but I am worried about what will cause orgasm-like effects and what will make it more difficult for us to get to that completely giving, slow, and loving point. Has anyone had (or heard of anyone else's) experiences with virginal karezza? Is there anything that can replace the energy exchange that supposedly happens with intercourse? What are your thoughts on the idea of slowly moving away from edging and such things? Any other advice or thoughts are completely welcome!

I also have another question about time apart and how that affects relationships from a bonding/karezza point of view. In a week and a half I will be taking a trip and will be away from my boyfriend for 2 weeks. We will see each other briefly for a couple days, and then will be apart for another week. After that, we'll be together for a week, but *might* be separated again for another week after that. We haven't been away from each other for more than 2 weeks since meeting, and haven't been away from each other for *any* extended time for at least half a year (as far as I can remember). What sorts of things have people noticed when those daily bonding behaviors aren't there anymore due to separation? What might be a good way to still stay connected? I read that people often find it's good to have a couple days of cuddling, upon reuniting, before getting into more sexual things. Does that seem true? It makes sense to both me and my boyfriend.

Thanks for any help!

Welcome

These are all good questions. And I'm going to see if I can get some others to post - who might have some useful insights.

There are no end of playful things to do with a sweetheart in bed. If you run out of ideas, you can always click on the "Hugging Permitted" logo to the left. Every time you refresh the page, you will see another "exchange." There are also three weeks of exchanges in our book (Cupid's Poisoned Arrow).

As for classic foreplay, I say make your own experiments...and notice what you notice. Just try not to leave him with a case of blue balls. Smile If it happens, pouring cold water over the genitals will help.

As for the separations, what can you do about them? Such things happen in life. Do what you can to stay in touch during the separation via texting or phone. And I totally agree with your plan. When you are back together, try not to immediately devour each other. Stay focused on generous touch and affection for a day or so.

It takes time to get your balance with karezza, and sometimes you learn more from the excesses than the successes. Smile You're lucky to have a partner with whom you can play affectionately. Experiment and notice what you notice.

encouraging to hear

your story- I am impressed that you and your boyfriend are looking into karezza at your ages- you must be spiritually developed- old souls or something I would say- and very sensitive people it sounds like from your writing-

One thing I'm wondering about- I've wondered about this for a very long time- and maybe you can help clarify this for me- I've felt that the act of orgasmic sex is very spiritually bonding between people- is this what you define as losing your virginity? That's how I define it- so to me the man's orgasm inside a woman bonds them very strongly- it marries them, in other words- and that is why some people want to only have sex with one person in their lives- what do you think? Of course there are also religious teachings on the subject, but I have tended to consider it pretty much from what I would call the "spiritual scientific" or "energetic" standpoint-

Or do you consider penetration itself to be losing your virginity?

I know in our world many people often consider things only physically, materialistically, but I feel there are powerful spiritual forces connected with sex- and I feel the male orgasm inside the woman is a powerful spiritual glue-

I'm not sure that I personally would consider karezza penetration to be losing one's virginity- but I know people have different definitions.

Sounds like your

Inner Pair Bonder is talking, Jelly. Unfortunately, it may have other messages up its sleeve on down the road. Did you read this article? "How to Talk to Cupid?" http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/200908/how-tal...

Even though there are no doubt spiritual/energetic elements at work in unions, our bodies have "default" agendas for physical-plane priorities. And it's good to understand these, so we can more consciously steer for whatever we want.

I read the article,

and I have a few questions:

1. You mentioned you would write another article on the mood swings lovers experience- is that article available?
2. You said, "Alas, assuming your honeymoon neurochemistry kicks in at all research shows that it will likely wear off within two years." I have heard this two year statistic over and over, and had it confirmed to me many times by friends' experiences- but here's the thing: I've never fallen in love, in the requited sense- I can see at one level that the women I had a chance to be with in the past were not a good match for me- yet it could theoretically be the case that one will not find a partner whom one falls deeply in love with- as you say, the "primitive region of the brain predated the human rational brain (neo-cortex) by millions of years. It doesn't run on logic. This is why you can't use willpower to force yourself to fall in love or stay in love." I understand that karezza will bond people regardless of what level of love-infatuation they have- but do you see it as a problem if I should find myself together with someone who I'm not "madly" in love with? Do you think that that "head over heals" deal is kind of an important start to a relationship?

Jelly,

Karzza isn't superglue...it's just the *best* glue. Wink It brings sanity and kindness to sexual connections...whatever happens.

Personally, I think listening to your inner guidance about mate choice is far more important than listening to your hormones. But that's because I did entirely too much of the latter. Wink

You asked about the highs and lows. I was referring to these two articles:

"Orgasm's Hidden Cycle" and
http://www.reuniting.info/orgasms_hidden_cycle
"The Passion Cycle"
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/200908/the-pas...

Ravenna

As far as going away, I find its wonderfully reflective time. I get to have the space with myself just to feel, feel what I want, where I'm going and how I dovetail with my partner. When I come back together I usually feel refreshed and renewed with a new outlook on our partnership together. Of course we've been together for 28 years so there's no insecurities about our long term commitment to each other. A new relationship can be challenging in this way.

About karezza and bonding behaviours, I commend the both of you for your awareness around sexuality at such a young age. As far as the rules of karezza, the answer is, there really aren't any except that partners leave orgasm out of the picture. This means not getting too heated up, whether there is penetration or not. Outside of this karezza can be whatever you want it to be. There's nothing wrong with oral except that it tends to create an arousal level that leads to orgasm. I don't believe karezza mean no arousal, just not too much. Stay in the middle zone where the warm of affection lies.

What I do question is how you can realistically manage sexual contact over time, especially with oral, and not be drawn towards intercourse. As a man I would be better off sticking with "clothes on" affectionate contact rather than everything but penetration. I cant say for sure, but I would suspect that your guy may find this more and more difficult as time goes by and possibly affect your relationship negatively. Penetration becoming the forbidden fruit. If your commitment is to stay a virgin until marriage you may want to consider more virgin like behavior and what that would look like. Something to think about when your with yourself for a couple weeks.

=)

I want to thank everyone for responding. I greatly appreciate all of your ideas. I wrote my first post very shortly before I took a trip to Italy. I have been there for more than a month with very few chances for free internet. I just got back the other night, and have only recently had a chance to catch up on some things. So, I apologize for not being able to post again until now.

I'm very glad to have gotten a response from you, Darryl. A while ago, I read an older thread about karezza experiences that people have had. I found your posts on that thread very interesting and inspiring. Thank you for the reply and insights.

So far, doing everything but intercourse has not been a problem. I asked my boyfriend what he thought of your ideas and possibly doing more "clothes on" kinds of things. We talked about it a bit, and it seems like it might cause us more relationship problems to go back to clothes on stuff after having done more sexual things for a year or so. Also, shared nakedness is something that we both find enjoyable, relaxing, and comforting, even without a sexual context. Though, we are currently trying to limit the amount of more intense sexual stuff that we do, since we seem to have a lot of trouble sticking to karezza when we do anything that stimulates my boyfriend's genital area. lol... at least lately. We were great at it for a while. But we've had trouble ever since we met up in Italy a few weeks ago. It seems like we really need to find a way to stay in the middle zone more and not get too heated up. We don't do oral very often, but I did want to know what people on here thought of it, and what their karezza related experiences with it have been etc. At this point, neither of us think my virginity will cause problems, but we'll both keep it in mind as a possibility and something to be aware of. Thank you, again.

Marnia, I'm truly thankful for your help. I have perused the "Hugging Permitted" page somewhat, and it seems like a really nice resource for us. I've also seen the three weeks of exchanges program somewhere on here and my boyfriend is open to trying it, or incorporating those specific exchanges into our current way of doing things.

We ended up having quite a bit of trouble staying away from sexual stuff for the first day or two after reuniting. We also had difficulty with doing karezza during those times. My boyfriend ended up having a few orgasms. But, overall, we managed okay. They did affect our trip negatively in some ways, but it was still a great trip, and our relationship is better than ever. They mostly made him far more tired, detached, and prone to negative thinking (as might be expected). But he was able to recognize it in himself, for the most part, and control it a bit.

I mentioned it before. After experimenting with it a bit, like you suggested, we seem to be having trouble with doing karezza and classic foreplay, at the moment. So, we'll keep experimenting with other things and see what works. It definitely seems like it will take a while to find balance. But, I'm looking forward to it and enjoying the experience of getting there. We truly have been learning a *lot* from the excess. :) But, we've gotten to the point where we're really looking forward to having more success.

Jellybeanrumi, I think we've already talked about the questions you asked me here, right? I'm going to work on my email to you next :)

I did want to ask some more questions. Yet again, I'm unsure if I should put them here or in a different place. Tell me if I need to move them or something like that. I'm curious about wet dreams. I've read that they can have similar or the same effects as a regular orgasm would. I was mostly wondering what people's experiences have been with their frequency and whatnot. My boyfriend had had about 2 his whole life before he met me. Since we've been together, he's had far more than I've bothered to keep track of. He's even had a couple nocturnal emissions without a dream to accompany them. Many of these dreams/emissions have happened when we were not doing karezza and he was having quite regular/frequent awake orgasms (he actually had far less dreams when we first started karezza and he hadn't orgasmed for 2 weeks (which is interesting to me because I think a lot of people end up having them after not orgasming for a while). I don't know if anyone will have any insights about this, but I was wondering if other people have experienced similar things, and just general experiences about wet dreams/their effects/frequency, etc.

Also, I'm looking for any advice about staying in that middle zone... not getting too heated up.

Thank you all again! I hope to be able to respond to things more quickly on here from now on, and participate more. However, my life is getting pretty busy and it doesn't seem like it will quiet down much during the next year, so we'll see how it goes. Also, sorry if this post is at all jumbled or confusing, or if there are lots of typos. I'm still getting over the jet lag :)

Welcome back, Ravenna

I've enabled you to blog in case you'd like to start your own thread. But it's fine to continue here, too.

Sounds to me like you are doing a great job of finding your way, actually. Remember, all experiments teach you something. So just keep watching and learning. I'm happy to send you the Exchanges if you would like them.

Wet dreams just happen. Sometimes they cause a "hangover," and sometimes they don't. So it's best just to notice what happens...and shrug. Smile

It gets easier to stay in a middle zone when you can have gentle intercourse. Oral sex can be extremely stimulating and increase everyone's "itch for orgasm," but just figure it out as you go.

You're very lucky to have a partner willing to explore with you!