♥Good sex does lead to bonding. Orgasms during sex are a good thing.

Submitted by PPPk on
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Dear forum,

I stumbled upon this website a while ago. The articles about porn and masturbation really struck a chord with me. I have since started experimenting with periods of abstinence from porn and masturbation, with good results. I am generally more confident and more driven to meet real women without porn and masturbation. Frequent porn-watching also has a negative effect on my mood and self-esteem.

Before I start with my criticism of the message I have found on this site, first some notes:

This website does seem to attract many men (and women?) who experience strong negative side-effects from orgasm. This group is a very small percentage of the overall population, but may be overrepresented here. If you experience such negative side-effects from orgasm, then I completely understand your refraining from orgasm.

Moreover, I believe this website also is a proponent of cuddling and kissing and general physical intimacy to promote bonding and feelings of affection in a relationship. I believe that these behaviors do indeed help to create feelings of affection in a relationship, and I do this in my own relationships as well.

There are some issues I have with the message on this website though. It seems that people here believe that great sex and orgasms during sex are not a good thing, while the world is filled with obvious evidence to the contrary. The thing that itches the most is the following: Is it a bad thing if I give my girlfriend as much pleasure in bed as I can? Is that unethical? That seems completely absurd to me. I love sex, and I love giving pleasure to the woman I'm with. It turns me on to give her great pleasure, and it makes me feel good to know that I can give her great pleasure. You would have me believe that this is bad!

Now, I just read on this forum that although orgasms are pleasant, they do not promote bonding. That they can, in fact, make the relationship worse. Here is what I believe: bad sex can destroy a relationship. Great sex can greatly increase feelings of love, affection and desire for eachother.

Sex is very important for both women and men. Plenty of women end a relationship because of bad, unpleasant sex. I had great sex with my first girlfriend, and when we ended the relationship, she at one point cried, because she was afraid that she would not be able to find another man that could please her so much in bed. A man that is particularly bad in bed will frequently lose his girlfriends early on in relationships. A man that is great in bed can much more easily get great relationships, and have his girlfriend be in love, very devoted and very passionate about the sex. I know men in both categories. I have experienced these things for myself.

It is true that once you give a woman great sex, she will fantasize and masturbate more, and she will desire sex more. Once again, you would have me believe that this is a bad thing. That I hurt her by giving her great sex. Even though women will experience this as a positive thing themselves, and it makes them feel much closer to you!

You seem to be arguing the following:
Sexual stimulation can be very pleasant and we feel a strong desire for it (true)
Overstimulation can have negative consequences (like compulsive porn-watching, also true)
Therefore, we should avoid all great pleasure (what!?)

I am looking forward to reading your reactions.

Initial Reactions

I think that most people would deny that sex is bad until they understand what is happening and experience the difference for themselves. I denied it too at first until one night i was thinking about a girl i met and decided i respect her and wouldn't think naughty thoughts of her, i fell asleep and woke up finding myself still thinking about her when i knew that if i normally had pleasured myself i would not be thinking of her. That lead me to finding this site and understanding what happens with orgasm, once you go about 2 weeks without orgasm you feel a lot better you will realize this if you have an orgasm because you will feel tense and moody for days and it's becomes very obvious, here is a good article that explains the effects. I do not have a partner to experience karezza with, i think you should atleast try it, from what i understand it becomes more intense if both partners have gotten past the 2 week cycle. No one is saying pleasure is bad, it's what is happening in your body as a result of orgasm that is bad, several members have mentioned that once they experienced karzezza that they liked it more than regular sex.

http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_in_the_brain

My Thoughts

It's not so much that sex is bad. Generally speaking, I think one concern is men get so focused on reaching orgasm they tend to minimize the intimate, affectionate, emotional connection, foreplay stuff that goes along with sex. Women usually get frustrated by this and lose interest in sex which in-turn creates sexual frustration for the man in future encounters (especially if he's feeling a chaser effect - wanting more and more sex) and a downward spiral gradually strains the relationship. Potentially to the point where resentment flourishes and they either tough it out and stay in a unhappy relationship, end it and move on, or try to improve it in an amicable manner.

It's not so much to discourage sex, but to compromise and balance it out so both the man & woman are getting their needs met most every time. Men typically want sex more often (like 3 times a week) and don't need much time to reach orgasm (~8 minutes) where women want it less often (maybe once a week) and need more time to reach orgasm (~20 minutes). Since men & women have different perspectives of sex they often have trouble getting, or staying, in sync with one another. So, other methods are suggested as ways to help keep couples harmoniously in sync long-term, pacing themselves along the way.

You seem to be fortunate to have those Casanova qualities where this may be less of a problem for you.

---
You mean I'm just supposed to enjoy her company?

Your interpretation of the

Your interpretation of the message isen`t quite correct. Imagine sexual arousal as being on a scale from 1-100 with hundred being hte point that leads to ejaculatory orgasms. around 95 men can have multiple whole body orgasms. Around 90 maybe even 85 the energy starts to get hot and steamy and you get the real craving and drive for orgasm. The key to Karezza as I understand it is to stay relaxed at an arousal level around 80 or maybe a bit more but not go too far into the "red zone" of higher arousal which leads the drive towards orgasm, to intensity feelings. Instead one surfs around in the lower eighties and relaxes. As one does so one becomes more sensitive to the energy that is actually here and because of the relaxation one creates a sort of space for more energy to flow without arousal becoming to hot. After some weeks of practice this actually feels better than having regular orgasms.

By surifng int he landscape around 95 in arousal you can have many multiple orgasms without ejaculation. The problem however is that these leads to the orgasmic hangover which you have read about. The technique is roughly the same as in Karezza but because you are aplying the technique at a hgiher arousal point the result is different. You get a an rgasmic high that leads to a downfall. You can measure the difference by seeing how long the afterglow lasts. After multiple orgasms the afterglow is there but does not last so long. After Karezza it lasts very long. More importantly you can track the two week hangover. As far as I have seen not a single person that has tried to track the hangover by doing three weeks of karezza and then having regular orgasms again have not found the orgasm cycle/hangover. There are those that claim their wives exhibit none of the symptoms but as far as I have seen none of them have actually done the experiment. They just see a happy multiply orgasmic wife in a stable relationship and presume it isen`T there. I think in those cases most likely the wife has a very mild hangover in most cases and possibly in some rare cases do not have one for reasons we do not understand.

What I have said is not the complete picture tough. The orgasm that is seen as "bad" is only the peak orgasm but there is also the tantric valey orgasm which in the context of karezza is benign and beneficial. While the peak orgasm is yang, explosive, has a distinct begining and end the valey orgasm is implosive, more diffuse, more like streaming bliss, can be experienced like a waterfall by some and feels more nurturing. IT does not lead to a hangover. It is very zen and happens only when you let go of all striving and can not normally be worked towards in the manner you can work towards a peak orgasm.

Karezza is satisfying enough for people without peak orgasms because you become so sensitive to pleasure and your body starts to conduct more pleasure without so much heat and because it gives you a feeling of contentment during and after sex. You sort of enter a continuos calm streaming sexual bliss and find this more satisfying than regular sex.

People here don`t talk much about valey orgasms but you can expect to have them some of the time if you practice karezza acording to stadard protocol here. If you meditate and do energywork you can expect to have lots more of them. My meditation teacher which also teaches workshops on taoist and tantric sexuality teaches an aproach that gives you lots of them. It isen`T entirely true either that you can`t work towards them either. You can actually have them at will with enough training altough that is very advanced. Once you have done enough meditation and energywork you can enter deep states of meditation at will in only seconds. States that took years to achieve such as the Buddhist Jhana states can be learnt to be entered on command once one has some mastery over them. THese are states that normally are only achieved when you relax and surrender and do not expect anything. But over time the brain can be trained to surrender like that at will in a fairly similar way as one can enter a deep hypnotic trance on command. THe same thing is true for valley orgasms.

Beyond the valley orgasm there is also the soul orgasm which is a deeper merging of the couple having sex.

Anyway, the key to karezza as I understand it is that what leads to relationship harmony, lasting love and attraction, health, and actually the most pleasure is to stay out of the "red zone" and not have peak orgasms. In normal relationships sexual attraction withers. IF you read the statistics people just aren`T having much sex after a while. In amny cases the attraction dies entirely. Also love often disapears and there is lots of conflict and disharmony. Karezza avoids all of those things and turn them arround so things only get better as time goes by. Sexual attraction does not die it is stable and high. People also loose most (but not all) interest in other people. Conflicts disapear. Love is consistently strengthened as time goes by. Of course there are no guarantees. Som epoeple are terrible matches for each other. But Karezza removes those biological/hormonal mechanisms that leads to couples normally getting in trouble after two or three years and that leads to infidelity and partner changes.

So it is only from this perspective that normal sex is "bad" and karezza is good. But int he absence of Karezza I whole heartedly agree that great convetional sex is beneficial to the couple and bonding. It seems to me that most of the members of this board actually think it is not and belive that strong orgasms in a normal couple creates more problems than average sex. I think that is because this board is almost entirely made up of former porn addicts and people who have some degree of POIS (post orgasmi illness syndrome) which of course are super sensitive and get tipped of balance by orgasms ina way normal people do not and have great difficulties in controlling themselves when it comes to sex. Also Marnias description of her own relationships prior to karezza showed her to have been very sensitve to the dynamic. Also cupids poisoned arrow is written in a way that teh first hundred pages makes you feel the message is to forsake all sexual pleasure for the sake of holding each other close and getting a stable relationship. This means that only a very special bread of people will finish the book and try this out. If you read the entire book you find more descriptions of karezza sex actually being very pleasurable and not seeming totally life denying so if people would finish the book a more balanced group of people would try karezza but as it is written most people are unlikely to. THe only reason I didn`t through the book away was because I knew from other reading that the feeling I got from the begining of the book was misleading. THe type of people that don`t mind the perception the begining of the book easily gives will often be people who have a strong preference for loving cuddly sex and have a distaste for anything more animalistic. THey will probably often be people who already emphasize the cuddly being together aspect of sex as bonding and don`t see the bonding potential in the intimacy of anal sex for example but see it only as dirty and wrong (as was evident in a previous thread here). Another group which will finish the book is people whose relationship are already in crisis and are ready to try something radical. These people are most likely also very sensitive to the orgasmic cycle. In sum this can lead to a lot of bad group think about how regular sex actually works for people and a lot of hang ups with regards to sexuality. Oh and I forgot to mention that porn addicts trying to motivate themselves to be celibate will of course often but of course not always use disdain for aspects of sexuality as a motivating factor to stay of the porn and masturbation.

Anyway, from my perosnal experience and observation of people it is entirely accurate that great sex and strong orgasms lead to bonding. As I said, however, conventional sex is always influenced by the dopamine hangover and so will create distance long term as compared to karezza but if you don`t practice karezza great sex with strong orgasms are more much more bonding than average sex and average orgasms. At fastseduction.com the pickup artists there ahve shared experience systematically over many years now. One of their most clear findings is that the key factor in keeping women coming back and staying with them for a long time is the quality of the sex. Their pool of "data" is far bigger than what you can find at reunitng.info. It is very systematicly tested out as well. For example the poster Blackdragon did an experiement where tried to always make the women he was in a relationship with (he practices open relationships so there are always several in his case) have an orgasm whenver he was with any of them. Acording to him this has been the single most important thing for keeping his girls loyal and happy. So as far as conventional sex goes all the conventional advice about good sex and variety holds true.

Thanks for your thoughts

I'm glad some of the information here has been helpful to you.

I was confused by your use of the word "unethical" or "bad" in connection with giving your girlfriend orgasms. No one here has ever suggested such a thing. We think people should do just as they please. The purpose of this site is simply to encourage people who are tired of lots of turnover in their love lives to try something different for a few weeks to see if they notice improvements.

I would disagree that the "world is filled with obvious evidence to the contrary." Only 13% of couples find their way to lasting romantic harmony. http://www.psychologymatters.org/pubs/journals/releases/gpr13159.pdf The belief that orgasms are what create that harmony is simply a belief...not supported by the brain changes that accompany intense stimulation.

I, too, ended relationships (in the past) over "bad" sex as you would define it. But I did it because I was ignorant that good sex is about harmony, not orgasms.

It's great that you enjoy pleasuring women. If I may ask, why did you leave that woman with whom you had such wonderful sex?

Turning lovers into junkies *seems* like a great thing in the PUA world, but anytime people begin to see each other as "fixes," it puts enormous strain on the relationship. Such needs tend to increase as the person's hunger and dissatisfaction increase...until the other partner gets tired of being used...even for something as delicious as sex. Since the goal here is relationship harmony, your approach has a built-in weakness.

Avoid all great pleasures? Are you kidding me? Have you read any of the books on karezza or any of the ♥ posts or any of the Richardson's books? Get educated. You may find that you've been missing some of life's most wonderful pleasures, dear PPPk. Smile

That said, when I read my first book about Daoist lovemaking, I had a response similar to yours...although I tried to keep an open mind. Wink

Amen!

[quote=Marnia]

Avoid all great pleasures? Are you kidding me? Have you read any of the books on karezza or any of the ♥ posts or any of the Richardson's books? Get educated. You may find that you've been missing some of life's most wonderful pleasures, dear PPPk. :-)[/quote]

Amen to that!!

Back in my 20s, I was with a young man who "gave" me an orgasm every time he tried (men don't really "give" women orgasms--they just create the correct scenario for a woman to be able to achieve one *on her own*)~~he was by anyone's account, the world's most perfect lover. He was also a bodybuilder and had the sculpted body of a Greek god.

Alas, about two years into our relationship, his touch began to repulse me. I couldn't bear to kiss him. I no longer wanted to be with him sexually. Had he changed? No, and I never once tried to think of some reason that made *him* responsible for my shift in perception. I KNEW it was me, but at the time, didn't know why.

Now I am much older (and hopefully wiser!) and have met someone I cherish. We both started on the karezza journey together and at the same time.

Let me tell you, if you have never experienced lovemaking this way, you do not know what you are missing!!!

This isn't a group of people trying to be some sort of abstinence-driven crazy cult--a lot of us have discovered that sex is *soooo much better* this way--it's a no-brainer to continue on with it! I know I will never go back to regular "hot sex." It feels hollow and empty and emotionless and in no way compares with what I am experiencing now. And some of us *do* have orgasms, but they are different. They are not goal-driven. They just happen in the moment without effort. (and I have found that these type orgasms do not produce the hangover effect that I would get with an orgasm I strived for)

The only way you can know what we are talking about is to try it yourself (if you are curious!). If not, then so be it and good luck to you!

rediscovered

I thought I made it

I thought I made it abundantly clear in my post that I agree that there is a paradigmatic shift between karezza and normal peak orgasmic sex when it comes to both realtionship harmony and maintaining sexual attraction and love over the long term. What I argued, and I think I made that very clear, was that for those that do not practice karezza it is better to have good sex with strong orgasms than average sex with average orgasms. THe fact that only 13% of couples find lasting romantic harmony has ZERO significance for that argument because I am not arguing normal sex has a good track record in creating relationship harmony just that good sex has a better track record in doing so than bad sex and we don`t know anything about the sex lives of the 13%. Anyway, I wouldn`t say that most people have anywhere near good sex compared to where you actually can go with sex if you have some real knowhow and abilities. I´d say most people have crappy sex. And that makes the fact that most people break up irrelevant as a data pool. You would have to look at the ones that do have REALLY great sex and compare to those who don´t.

It has been my clear observanse that the people I know who have really great sex have a much greater chance of staying together and of maintaining sexual attraction, love and a high frequency of intercourse. THis matches my observance from countless webforums. You dismiss the experience of PUAs in a very superficial way with out knowing what you are talking about. MOst PUAs eventually want long term relationships and that is what they end up with. When they do they often still share experiences with that to learn how to make them work as good as possible and they have extremely valuable insights into how to do that that I have not found anywhere else. THe question at hand was is great and highly orgasmic sex better than average and only so so orgasmic sex in maintaining relationship quality and length and frequency of sex and according to very systematically shared experience between thousands upon thousands of PUAs it is, also for monogamous long term relationships which many of them are in now and have been in before. For a look at what PUA knowledge can do to relationship harmony check out the blog marriedmansexlife and see what it did for Atol Kay. Also if you read the comments on his blog posts you will see that he has many readers who get the same great results in their own relationships through applying PUA principles in the way he teaches. Also if you google Dave from Hawai you will find a similar story about a man turning his failing marriage around using PUA principles.

"Turning lovers into junkies *seems* like a great thing in the PUA world, but anytime people begin to see each other as "fixes," it puts enormous strain on the relationship. Such needs tend to increase as the person's hunger and dissatisfaction increase...until the other partner gets tired of being used...even for something as delicious as sex. Since the goal here is relationship harmony, your approach has a built-in weakness."

THis is your perception of non cuddly sex I guess and say more about how YOU experienced other types of sex not what other types of sex are in themselves or are to all other people. Just because YOU feel like peak orgasmic sex is essentially just about getting a fix does not mean others share that perception. For me giving a woman a profound orgasm is not just about cold pleasure but being able to give something profound. THe attitude one has to giving entirely changes the hormonal effect of the sex one has even if it is filled with powerful orgasms. If you really want to give the strength of the orgasms actually strengthen the love aspect following it. Also the feelings of total merger and extreme intimacy that I sometimes feel during ordinary sex is usually dependent on the sex being great because it helps you block out the world and go deep within the mental space you create between the two of you. Furthermore, doing kinky things can be VERY bonding and for many is a key part of bonding. Of course for the army of ex porn addicts at reuniting that is hard to see but their situation is very special. It would be like thinking the experience of an of alcoholic is sufficient to understand the relationship every one else has to alcohol. Just because everything kinky for you was just a way to manicaly get your next fix and is a cold non bonding thing that does not mean you know how this it is experienced by others. For an alcoholic a glass of wine is a way to get his fix and numb the pain for me it is just something that tastes good and makes me relax and which I drink very little of. Just like letting someone touch you in a sexual way is an intimate and bonding thing so letting someone do something kinky to you or be allowed to do something kinky to someone else is very, very bonding. People are not only bonded by warm affectionate touch but also strongly by shared experience especially profound experience. Kinky sex can have that function for sure.

Actually, I would argue that amongst people who don`t practice Karezza the ones that have the highest rate of relationship satisfaction are the really kinky ones like BDSM people, cuckold couples and swingers (I don`t think the same goes for polyamorous people but don`t know so much about them . Swingers forums are filled with couples that are very happy together and have great sex lives even after 20 or 30 years together. They frequently attribute a lot of that to their swinging. Same goes for BDSM and cuckold couples. Enthusiastic love for each other and very active sex lives even after many years. They in all those three lifestyles is that they have incredibly good sex with lots of strong orgasms and something to maintain excitement. You should check out the taken in hand site. They sure have found a way to keep things going that most people do not. Again, as I have said several times in both posts I think Karezza is a better option than all peak orgasmic approaches but the success of these groups support my argument that great sex is better than average sex for creating relationship harmony.

Sorry for the confusion

I was trying to reply to PPPk, not you. I'm not sure why the comparison of "hot" and "less hot" orgasms is particularly relevant on a karezza forum. It's great that you're finding what works for you.

You did reply to me about

You did reply to me about the PUA stuff at least.

What i wrote about hot sex vs not so hot sex is to address the opening posters question of how can great pleasure and great sex not be bonding. I write that I think great sex is far more bonding than average sex but that over the long term all orgasmic sex will bring more disharmony to a relationship and greater chance of breakup than with karezza. This precisely addresses what he asks about as his experience is precisely htat great sex bonds and bonds more than not great sex.

New Start - I'm not sure how the

I'm not sure how the seduction websites fit into this discussion. Karezza is, for the most part, meant for long-term relationships. The so called data from the seduction sites is also irrelevant as none of them use a Karezza approach.
The only legitimate data would be if there were equal numbers of seduction artists employing karezza methods as there are employing other methods.

Another thing, you are incorrect about the people posting on karezza suffering from POIS. We have 7 years of forum experience, with years of coorespondence with couples and individuals. Yours is an assumption based on no evidence or knowledge. Marnia and I certainly didn't have POIS. We always loved orgasm and were unaware of any perception shifts until we experimented with Karezza.

The post-orgasmic hangover is most often a subtle shift in perception of your partner, not symptoms you notice you experience. Not POIS or anything like that. Until one tries Karezza they are unaware of these perception shifts and their power to affect the relationship.

The key to getting Karezza is to try it. That is, spend a month trying the approach outlined by CPA and the Richardsons, then go back to conventional sex. Judge how your relationship is with both approaches. Compare and contrast. Thoeretical analysis doesn't cut it.

In the post you responded to

In the post you responded to I wrote amongst other things this:

Anyway, the key to karezza as I understand it is that what leads to relationship harmony, lasting love and attraction, health, and actually the most pleasure is to stay out of the "red zone" and not have peak orgasms. In normal relationships sexual attraction withers. IF you read the statistics people just aren`T having much sex after a while. In amny cases the attraction dies entirely. Also love often disapears and there is lots of conflict and disharmony. Karezza avoids all of those things and turn them arround so things only get better as time goes by. Sexual attraction does not die it is stable and high. People also loose most (but not all) interest in other people. Conflicts disapear. Love is
consistently strengthened as time goes by. Of course there are no
guarantees. Som epoeple are terrible matches for each other. But Karezza removes those biological/hormonal mechanisms that leads to couples normally getting in trouble after two or three years and that leads to infidelity and partner changes.

So it is only from this perspective that normal sex is "bad" and karezza is good. But int he absence of Karezza I whole heartedly agree that great convetional sex is beneficial to the couple and bonding. I think that is because this board is almost entirely made up of former porn addicts and people who have some degree of POIS (post orgasmi illness syndrome) which of course are super sensitive and get tipped of balance by orgasms ina way normal people do not and have great difficulties in controlling themselves when it comes to sex.

As I said, however, conventional sex is always influenced by the dopamine
hangover and so will create distance long term as compared to karezza but if you don`t practice karezza great sex with strong orgasms are more much more bonding than average sex and average orgasms.

So I explicitly argued that Karezza was far superior to ordinary peak orgasmic sex in that Karezza maintains sexual attraction and love and creates more harmony. WHat I made very clear was that I thought great sex with strong orgasms was more bonding than average or bad sex with little orgasms.

THe experience of pickup artists are relevant because they also have long term relationships, in many cases monogamous in many cases open to some degree and they share experiences about that. When they compare relationship quality and wether they last quality of sex is paramount. I find it strange that you see it as only relevant if there were PUAs that practiced Karezza so you could compare that with those who don`t as I have said so clearly, which my qoute from my first post shows, that I agree with the benefits of Karezza but only argue great orgasmic sex to be more bonding than bad orgasmic sex.

You wrote this in reply to my post: The key to getting Karezza is to try it. That is, spend a month trying the approach outlined by CPA and the Richardsons, then go back to conventional sex. Judge how your relationship is with both approaches. Compare and contrast. Thoeretical analysis doesn't cut it.

In the post you replied to however I wrote this:

You can measure the difference by seeing how long the afterglow lasts. After multiple orgasms the afterglow is there but does not last so long. After Karezza it lasts very long. More importantly you can track the two week hangover. As far as I have seen not a single person that has tried to track the hangover by doing three weeks of karezza and then having regular orgasms again have not found the orgasm cycle/hangover. There are those that claim their wives exhibit none of the symptoms but as far as I have seen none of them have actually done the experiment. They just see a happy multiply orgasmic wife in a stable relationship and presume it isen`T there. I think in those cases most likely the wife has a very mild hangover in most cases

Did you actually read my post? It seems you as soon as I said anything positive about orgasmic sex you presumed I was arguing orgasmic sex was as good or better than Karezza for relationships even tough my qoutes show I explicitly said I was not. THen you tell me I need to do the practical experiment I actually wrote myself was necessary to track the differences? Who are you arguing against? From what I just showed you I wrote it certainly isen`t me.

As far as the POIS thing goes I was unclear. THere are/have been POIS sufferers at this forum. What I meant to say was that there is a spectrum of reaction to orgasms which varies from the POIS sufferers on the one extreme to the wives talked about in a few threads I have read here that does not seem to show hte symptoms even after many years of marriage. I said in my post I think they may still be affected only not so storngly as they haven`T as far as I have seen done the experiment of comparing the approaches but regardless it seems clear some experience much lesser symptoms. Marnias description of the contrast between her relationships pror to and after KArezza are not representative. I know many who do not show naywhere near the instability in relationships and so must be affected differently. The level of instabilty Marnia describes is far towards the very sensitive end of the spectrum IMO. I tried to argue that the people on this forum are in large part those that show the strongest reactions because otherwise they are unlikely to have showed up here and gotten the point. Sure many are not but it does seem very plausible that those with the strongest reactions are the ones who google something that get them here or get the picture when they read about it or are at least willing to try something new as things aren`t working for them. Because the makup of forum members are dominated by those with the most extreme reactions to the dopamine hanoger the perception of orgasmic sex here becomes to extreme and one sided.

Basing your opinion on

Basing your opinion on Marnia's love life would be as misguided as us basing our opinions on only Marnias love life.
We don't, and neither do the many traditions that have practiced Karezza or similar approaches, and know nothing about Marnia's love life.

Since you read CPA, you should be aware that many traditions have discovered the value of this approach. Here a few people who have figured it out:
Alice Bunker Stockham's "Karezza: Ethics of Marriage"
http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/stockham_karezza

The Karezza Method
http://www.reuniting.info/karezza_method_lloyd

"Male Continence" - Noyes and the Oneida Experiment
http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/male_continence_noyes_oneida

You make a lot of assumptions that I disagree with. I disagree with your assessment that the karezza couples here are an anomaly. Your view that the couples here all have " extreme reactions" or POIS is not correct. You see, the point you are missing is that many happy long-term couples have gotten much happier by using Karezza approach. They didn't have any obvious symptoms related to orgasm, just as Marnia and I did not. We had to compare to see the improvement.

Just like you know nothing about all the people we have been in contact with (this forum is a very small sample) over the last 10 years, I know nothing about the specifics of the pick up artists' relationships. The PUA couples could very well be having orgasms every hour on the hour and be happy as clams with no noticeable relationship disharmony.

The questions I would first want to have answered are:
1)) What percentage of the pick up artist community members are currently in a longterm relationship?
2) How long do their relationships last?
3) Are they still under the infulence of honeymoon chemistry (which can buffer the hangover effects)?

I see an awful lot of relationship disharmony in the world: Divorce, unhappy marriages, sexless marriages, hook-up culture. Yes, there may be happy couples on these forums you mention, but what is the percentage of men in these forums in a happy commited relationship? I would be interested in knowing that number.

As stated in my post below, no person will ever know how orgasm affects their perception of their partner until they sincerely practice Karezza for at least 3-4 weeks, then go back to conventional sex, then go back to Karezza. Until one does, it's all theoretical.

I explicitly said that it

I explicitly said that it was important to do the experiement of practicing karezza for three weeks and then having orgasms again to see the difference and I qouted what I said about that in my reply to you and yet again you tell me that is necessarry???

I am unsure what you are trying to acomplish in your reply. Are you still under the illusion that I don`t think Karezza is the best approach and trying to argue the benefits of Karezza to me by trying to back up teh benefits of karezza with more sources? As I very clearly and repeatedly said in the original post I think karezza has benefits for relationship harmony, for keeping love and attraction alive that I think it is superior to peak orgasmic sex and I think everyone should practice it. I only argued that I think a couple that does not practice karezza has a better shot at staying together than if they have great sex with lots of orgasms than if they have average or bad sex with little orgasms. That is what I have observed around me in my life and what THe experience of other people in other online forums have showed. That "data" is just as valid as the "data" the posters here have supplied.

I am not basing my opinion on karezza from Marnias love life and nowhere have I said so. You keep arguing against things I never said. Neither have I said only extreme people will benefit from karezza I have argued repeatedly in my posts that I belive it is the most beneficial appraoch for all people. What I have said is that I think that a LARGE PORTION of the people of this forum, which in case you didn`t know is not the same as ALL, have stronger hangover effects than the average person. By that I don`t necesarily at all mean an instant reaction after orgasms but the more hidden hangover. I will certainly argue that marnia had stronger reactions than average based on her own decsription in her book as her reltionships was much more unstable than those of most of the people I know and had that instability dissapear when starting with karezza. Since the relatioship instablities disapeared with karezza they were obviously caused by the hangover and since most people although affected aren`T affected that much her reactions was stronger than most.

When i press recent posts the first two pages of threads are filled with threads by porn and masturbation addicts and former porn and masturbation addicts. Of course that means something in their makeup or programming makes them more sensitive to the effects of orgasms and dopamine. They are NOT average. Do you really think addicts to PMO have the exact same makeup as people who are not addicted to PMO? They are not all the posters at this forum either. There are people here who have perfectly average reactions. But it is absolutely laughable to say that a forum that is so dominated by ex porn and masturbation addicts is anywhere close to representative. As I have said a bunch of times I believe Karezza has benefits for everyone. But I also believe that ex porn addicts will experience a contrast between their experience of sex before and after starting karezza that is not at all representative and I believe that colors their perception of peak orgasmic sex in many ways. As I said I belive a lot of the sex negativity expressed quite often by some posters on this forum is linked to the unusually strong contrast between their experience with sex before and after karezza and by psycholgocial issues regarding sex that they developed trying to kick the habit of PMO. Again I am NOt saying htat is the cas for all the former PMO addicts here but I certainly think it is the case for a rather large portion.

How on earth would I be able to give you statistics on those things? Most PUAs are not in long term relationships as they focus on more casual relationships. What I can say is that there are highly active subforums related to relationships at many PUA forums and in the discussions there it is a consistent finding that the quality of the sex and the amount and strength of orgasms for the woman is highly correlated with her treating them well and staying in the relationship longer.

Since you have such an incredibly hard time getting it in I willl repeat it once more I do believe and have said in my first post several times karezza is a better approach to sex than peak orgasmic sex for all (probably). Starting to sink in yet?

Not everyone here is here

Not everyone here is here because of post-orgasm dips. Many of us didn't even notice the dips so that can't be what brought us here. Many of us were not and are still not sexually active. Others were and are in long-term committed relationships they wanted to make even better. Very few, if any, females here would be consider PMO addicts. Many of us males were never on the extreme end of porn use such that any objective metric would consider us addicts. Here, there is no them and us. Anyone who becomes aware of their use habits, the cycles, withdrawal, etc. will begin to see that all PMO users are addicts. That includes your great sex crowd. The degree of addiction isn't relevant or helpful to healing. I can't find exactly what brought you here, but I'm not sure separation is going to help you move to wherever you're trying to go.

Gary is trying to explain that unless an orgasmic person who orgasms via porn use, bad sex, or great sex abstains long enough to experience the other side of the post-orgasm cycle, the person cannot personally know what we are talking about here.

I don't think anyone here is judging orgasmic sex as inferior. Orgasmic sex is procreative. It is the dopamine spike that we reject because there is another way. Same for porn. Porn is by design appealing as can be to the male brain. It takes great conscious effort to get to the other side of the PMO cycle and then some more awareness to stay there. Anyone who makes those internal changes will forever experience sex differently. I have no idea what you are referring to by "psycholgocial issues regarding sex that they developed trying to kick the habit of PMO." I've not seen that. Working through old issues perhaps, but new ones?

Do you have any support for your claim other than the PUA seen about great orgasms keeping partners together more than bad orgasms? Are you considering only female orgasm?

Where are you in this world of bad sex, great sex, karezza, PMO, abstention, etc? Why not speak from your experience instead of what some PUA has posted?

In the post you are replying

In the post you are replying to I said: What I have said is that I think that a LARGE PORTION of the people of this forum, which in case you didn`t know is not the same as ALL, have stronger hangover effects than the average person. By that I don`t necesarily at all mean an instant reaction after orgasms but the more hidden hangover.

So arguing that not all users here are PMO addicts aren`t really saying anything I am not. What I am saying is that a very large portion of the people here are PMO addicts and a large portion of the rest for other reasons are more sensitive to the cycle than others. I pushed the recent posts button and 18 out of 25 threads that came up related to addiction to porn masturbation and orgasm so clearly that crowd is very , very dominant. Not all the people here but everyone. Those guys are different to some degree. Even after rebooting for a long time just watching porn can often send one of them off on a destructive cycle of binging. I can go months without porn and not think about it, watch it again for a couple of weeks and then not watch it for ages. Of course there is something in our reward circuits that are different which makes it all much more difficult for those guys. For me it is easy to stay out of peak orgasmic zone if I want to (although I normally just have peak orgasmic sex as I don`t have a girlfriend and don`t want to practice karezza/tantra much with casual partners). I have zero difficulties in doing so. My meditation teacher teaches something very similar to what is taught here and does not recognize the difficulties people have with staying in the safe zone from his own students. I attribute that to the fact that a large portion, although far from all, of the people here are more sensitive than average to the pull of dopamine. When 18 out of 25 threads on the first page are about PMO addiction of course that is the case.

In addition to that I see it as self evident that the people who actually get Marnias message in blog articles or who actually finish CPA are not average. Her articles for the most part downplay the pleasure aspect to an extreme degree. I have read a bunch of articles by her around the web and the message a lot of people feel they get from it is to forsake the pleasure of sex for some sort of intercourse cuddling. Now we both know that is not true at all but that is what most people feel is the message when she writes the way she normally does. The same goes for the first part of CPA. THe begining anoyed me so much I wanted to throw the book away and I know all my friends would have ahd the same reaction. It was only because I knew more about karezza from other sources that I bothered finishing the book and found later portions of it actually did say there would be plenty of pleasure and it wasen`t all asceticism.

So those who finish the book and those who actually look furhter into karezza after reading most of her articles are obviously not average people. My guess is one group who does is in such relationship crisis they are willing to try something radical. Another group are those that already emphasize cuddly togetherness in their lovemaking. Of course there are other people who come her and look into it but such people and PMO addicts are a very large group IMO.

Now the point of this is that all these groups will often have a different view of peak orgasmic sex than the average person. Those I know that practice some form of sacred sex or karezza or similar either from real life, from other web forums and also my teachers students show a pattern of mostly just being happy with the improvement from their new lovemaking style. THey show little disdain for normal sex. THat also goes for those that are now aware of the dopamine cycle. However, in this forum I see a lot of negativity and hostility towards peak orgasmic sex from some, but far from all, of the posters that I do not recognize at all from other practioners of sacred sex. Why is that? I think it has a lot to do with the different backgrounds. PMO addicts will often motivate themselves in their recovery by viewing what they are addicted to with as negative eyes as possible. So by viewing normal sex as dirty and impure to some degree, to view it as ONLY cold and heartless and meaningless and or something else negative that motivates it is easier to stay away from it. It is such a common mechanism in trying to overcome an addiction. I often see the same in some of the people that want to be celibate for spiritual reasons. Loads of irrational negativity towards sex. It is extremely common. It is far from always that celibates have such view but it is often the case. Now the addicts and those who come from relationships in crisis and those who usually always have unstable relationships all share one thing and that is that they have felt much stronger consequences from peak orgasmic sex. There are large portions of people who feel much less. YOu have the 13% of swans that remain sort of immune to the effects and you have a lot more people who experience it much milder. THese people will view peak orgasmic sex differently as their experience is different. I think that explains a fair share of the rest of the unusual sex negativity I see in some of the posters here. THey just can`T see much positive in normal sex because it was so much worse for them and the experience of other forum users with similar backgrounds seem to confirm it works like that for everyone. Finally there is the group that already only emphasize cuddly togetherness sex even though peak orgasmic. This people often but far from always disdain anything of out hte ordinary in sex. I have spent a lot of time on different sex forums and there is always someone like that jumping in in threads saying how messed up people are for trying anal sex or saying that we are only coldly using are partners because we talk about technical aspects of how to achieve bigger orgasms or something like that. I have definitively seen some of that around here.

You said: Gary is trying to explain that unless an orgasmic person who orgasms via porn use, bad sex, or great sex abstains long enough to experience the other side of the post-orgasm cycle, the person cannot personally know what we are talking about here.

Again for the millionth time as I have said in all of my posts including the first one several times I am not arguing the benefits of peak orgasmic sex vis a vis karezza only that great orgasmic sex is more bonding than bad orgasmic sex. I believe karezza is better for ALL couples regardless of their sensitivity to the dopamine cycle as I believe it is always there to some degree fro everyone and anyway long term karezza just feels better and bonds even better. I have also in every post written that people need to do the experiement of comparing over time to see the effects of the cycle and I am getting very tired of having to explain people again and again that what they are arguing that I need to do I already told them in the post they are replying to that people need to do.

"Do you have any support for your claim other than the PUA seen about great orgasms keeping partners together more than bad orgasms? Are you considering only female orgasm?"

As I ahve said in previous posts multiple times it has been my observation of people around me and it has been my observation from countless hours on other webforums related to sex that this is clearly the case. If the sex is not good relationships often end very early, if it does last fairly long it lasts shorter than were the sex is good, if couples go from bad sex to good sex through learning something they stay together longer. How on earth would bad sex contribute to bonding a couple together by the way?

"Where are you in this world of bad sex, great sex, karezza, PMO, abstention, etc? Why not speak from your experience instead of what some PUA has posted?"

I have said some of this in this thread and some more in another. I don`t focus on my own experience as I am only one person and one subject makes for bad statistics. I don`t talk about what ONE PUA has posted I talk about what a group of PUAs that is far larger than the posters at reuniting have observed. They are acute observers of these mechanisms and very systematic in their observations and experiments. Their perceived experience is just as valuable as "data" as the experience of posters at reuniting.

Enough!

However, in this forum I see a lot of negativity and hostility towards peak orgasmic sex from some, but far from all, of the posters that I do not recognize at all from other practioners of sacred sex. Why is that? I think it has a lot to do with the different backgrounds. PMO addicts will often motivate themselves in their recovery by viewing what they are addicted to with as negative eyes as possible. So by viewing normal sex as dirty and impure to some degree, to view it as ONLY cold and heartless and meaningless and or something else negative that motivates it is easier to stay away from it.

In my view, these statements are simply untrue. And this kind of spin is not welcome. If you don't stop, you will be escorted from the premises.:-) This is your only warning.

No one here thinks sex is impure. No one here is hostile toward peak orgasm. We encourage porn addicts, regardless of the views they arrive with, to see their challenge as simply a brain plasticity issue, not a moral issue. This is pretty obvious to everyone but you.

Cupid is not like other sacred sex books in that it isolates the *biological* mechanisms than can make conventional sex promote separation in long-term relationships. So it inevitably focuses attention on what annoys you. Most authors of sacred sex books don't know this bit of science, because it's new (although the Daoists nailed it thousands of years ago). So they sidestep it.

I'm sorry if you don't approve of our effort to explain this biologically, or of how I made that point in my book. Stick to books by Osho's disciples. All of them approach the topic the way you approve of.

In any case, we've all heard your opinion now...several times. No need to continue to proselytize. Frankly, you give the impression of someone with little actual experience who very much wants to goad others into argument.

This argument is surprising

This argument is surprising to me. Yes it has seemed clear from the start that New Start has been promoting Karezza as beneficial over other forms of lovemaking. The trigger here might be the terminology of Pick Up Artist. This name alone implies using creativity to manipulate something one wants for one's own gain. Let's not get distracted by the name, although clearly a group of people who identify as Pick Up Artists will have a different agenda even if they find some means to reach relationship harmony in the midst of that.

I also think making arguments based off of a very vague descriptor such as "great" sex is hard to do. Everyone has a different frame of reference for what great is, because everyone has had different experiences. If you have not experienced karezza, how can you know how great "great" conventional sex is compared to karezza? Same goes with intimacy through kinky sex. If you've never experienced intimacy through kinky sex, how would you know how great that intimacy is, or be able to tell that it is not as great as the intimacy of karezza?

And I would suggest it takes much much longer than three weeks to begin to understand the benefits of karezza. Of course like all things it is an ongoing learning process but for me at least the process of beginning to wade through all of the ego's resistance to presence and love only began to happen after about two years. It's true there are benefits previous to that but this work with karezza just deepens and deepens.

without a doubt it takes longer

than 3 weeks. We say 3 weeks because many will notice a difference in that time frame, especially if they jump back to conventional sex. But more importantly, the limbic brain is likely to rebel at the idea if it knows going in that there is an end in sight - "ok, 3 weeks, I can handle that".

Orgasms

Orgasms do exactly what our human genetic engineering designed them to do. Provide the most compelling incentive for fertilization and conception, then encourage disconnect and seeking out another partner and repeat the cycle again and again to promote the maximum genetic diversity to insure the survival of the species. Orgasms are a good thing and almost all of us here on the planet got here because someone had an orgasm.

I do not wish to speak out of turn for Marnia and Gary, but I believe the underlying philosophy of the site is that in addition to the obvious positive results of orgasm, other effects that most people are not even aware of exist – that can and do often have profound and destructive consequences for relationships. The message of this vast body of work is to make people aware of these effects and to provide the knowledge and “tools” necessary to take conscious control of your sexuality. What you do with this knowledge is up to you.

In many of my posts I have discussed the negative effects that orgasm has on me – and I want to make it clear that orgasm does not make me ill or sick or incapacitate me in any way – any more than it does the majority of people here. The effects that we typically discuss here are very subtle, so subtle that the majority of people never recognize the symptoms or the cause. The fact is that in seeking more from their relationships the people here have taken the journey to learn more about themselves and about the cause and effect of their neurochemistry and are much more in tune with what is going on in their own bodies than the uninitiated person.

I am all about having the most satisfying intimate connection and maximizing the pleasure with my loving wife and will accept nothing less than the most exhilarating and mind bending sex life it is possible for us to generate. The further along this path you travel and the more self aware you become the more you realize there is way more to sex than the orgasm – and ultimately orgasm is not the pinnacle of pleasure but the end of it. The people here who are foregoing orgasm understand this in a way that most people do not, and use this knowledge to take their intimate connection with their partner far beyond the confines of orgasm, and far beyond what most people would believe is possible.

My question is,

why did your relationships end? I am not being confrontational with my question- I would genuinely like to know-

I myself have had terrible experiences with relationships, and with sex- I really want to improve this, so I'm seeking very hard to find out how to do it-

One thing I have learned from karezza literature is that there tends to be about a two year honeymoon period of being in love- after which reality sets in and people often break up- as I understand it, karezza is going to give partners a way to be in love for their whole lives- they learn to have something of a continuous honeymoon- from what I've read by folks here, this last into the late 40's, 50's- I think I've read accounts from someone in their 60's or so-

I haven't tried karezza yet- and I haven't developed my sexual abilities to the extent you mention, where you please women so much- I would like to experience both things for myself-

I think one happy medium between karezza and orgasmic sex is the insights of Von Urban in his book "Sex Perfection" http://www.reuniting.info/sex_perfection_and_marital_happiness_von_urban -

He concludes that if orgasmic sex lasts for at least a half hour, and is not repeated too often (I think he says before 5 days, at least) he says this balances the male and female energies in the two partners, and leads to fulfillment- there is more to it than that, but apparently what he found helps people stay together who otherwise would inexplicably break up- and he says that good sex is very key to a good relationship, as you mention.

PPPk - It's not our sequence of logic.

QUOTE: You seem to be arguing the following:
Sexual stimulation can be very pleasant and we feel a strong desire for it (true)
Overstimulation can have negative consequences (like compulsive porn-watching, also true)
Therefore, we should avoid all great pleasure (what!?)

The above "connecting the dots" is not ours, or any authors on Karezza. - they are yours only. Please keep in mind that Marnia has been writing and speaking on Karezza for 20 years, and individuals with porn issues have only been arriving here for the last few years.

The points below have been stated over and over in articles and our books, but misconceptions continue:
1) The post-orgasmic "hangover" is primarily a perception shift between sexual partners brought on by limbic brain mechanisms, such as the Coolidge effect.
2) You will never know how orgasm affects your perception of your partner until you sincerely practice Karezza for at least 3-4 weeks, then go back to conventional sex.
3) We never said orgasm could not bond, but if it was the primary entity bonding people, we would all be with our first sexual partner, and there would be no casual sex.
4) Orgasm is not bad or evil.
5) Intercourse without orgasm can be quite pleasurable if practiced with intent and presence.

Wish I had more time to get

Wish I had more time to get involved in this discussion at length, as it is an important one!

A few points to make (and this after having the most amazing sex of my entire life, by a long shot, last week - which was Karezza lovemaking):

Firstly, this path is not about doing things because of deductive logic. Some people may need deductive logic to start this path, or will see the logic in stopping doing what is depleting them if they reach a point of recognizing that - but it is reductionistic to simplify the message of this site to the following:

Sexual stimulation can be very pleasant and we feel a strong desire for it (true)
Overstimulation can have negative consequences (like compulsive porn-watching, also true)
Therefore, we should avoid all great pleasure (what!?)

The message of this site, as I see it, is not about doing things out of logic, but of exploring the potential that sexuality offers us. It is about rediscovering balance, humanity, and compassion, and using sex to sustain harmony in our bodies, minds, and relationships. Within that context, it is of course logical to avoid that which can have negative consequences on our relationships, but if you do not observe these consequences, it is also logical to explore what more is out there our of curiosity or a sense that there is a hidden dimension that is not being accessed. Each will come to this path for their own particular reasons, and no person's reason should be or could be your own, nor need it be.

Harmony and balance our birthright, but it is harder to discover when blinded by the pleasures and benefits that conventional sex offers, which are also very real and especially attractive in the times we live in. Like you and New Start, I agree that great conventional sex and the pleasure it brings can have obvious positive benefits, particularly initially as it is experienced in the short term - the feelings of potency, sensuality, power, stress release, discharge, and accomplishment of being great lovers. In a stressful world focused on accomplishment and power, sex is the perfect place for many people to claim the sense of confidence and vitality that they may not be experiencing in other areas of their lives. The buildup and release of charge through hot sex temporarily gives this sense of confidence that we can then bring into other parts of our lives. We feel attractive, loved, wanted, important.

The problem with great hot conventional sex in mind is that 1) it is so stimulating, it generally narrows our sense of other forms of lovemaking that are available -, 2) it is so pleasurable, it distracts us even from the ability to conceive of the possibility that a dimension of pleasure that is deeper and more profound even exists, and 3) it does seem to have long-term consequences that are very real and for many people depleting or negative, but which most people do not notice as they do not care to take the time to observe long-term cycles. As such, hot sex in the long term is in many cases not a sustainable way to deepen into love, and may even be a distraction.

Given that hot sex is a healthy or not so healthy distraction depending on how it affects you, the question becomes, a distraction from what? I would answer: a distraction from our ability to use sex as a path to spiritual realization and evolution. Getting more pleasure, which obviously feels good, is not the same as evolving. It is a very basic form of consciousness, neither good nor bad, but certainly not even the tip of the iceberg of the big enchilada, no matter how exquisitely fun. We certainly need to get our basic needs met: the need to be sheltered, eat, procreate. So having great biologically driven sex is healthy and satisfying in a similar way that enjoying a huge feast is healthy. It would be stupid to argue that because overeating good food can be bad for you, that you shouldn't eat food. That is not the argument. The argument would be that rather than overeating certain types of foods that you enjoy, you could eat less and savor more all the subtleties in those same foods. Same with sex: the whole point of avoiding orgasm is moot. Sex is orgasmic. Whether you end up in convulsions at the apex or not, orgasmic energy is a continuum. As such, any sort of pleasurable sensation in sex, whether conventional or karezza, is orgasmic, in my definition of orgasmic. So the idea is not to avoid orgasm at all. The idea is to rediscover what orgasmic charge is as a continuum, and explore the nuances of that charge as a flow state that can build and go places through sustained gentle broad spectrum presence that it can't go through intense narrow presence.

So, if your purpose in exploring Karezza is to find another way to become an accomplished lover and experience even hotter sex, be forewarned that Karezza will offer these things and more, but in an entirely different form, and if you do want to taste what this path offers, you will need to be willing to become completely deconstructed over the long term. If your interest is NOT to become a truly loving being but rather a more accomplished lover, then this may not be the path for you - but then that isn't entirely accurate either, for the best lover is probably the most loving lover. Perhaps the question then is simply, how do we learn to love through sex?

Spiritual realization for me is a path towards realizing greater wholeness, a path that includes everything in life, even the not so pleasurable. By "realizing" greater wholeness, I don't mean accomplishing greater wholeness. The thing about wholeness is that it is already whole. Therefore, the only challenge is to access an embodied experience of it. This is the only accomplishment. There is nothing we must "do" to reach it, other than bring our quality of presence to it. Genitally oriented sex is a fragment of a much larger form of awareness that starts at the base chackra but can move further upwards. As we bring the energy further into our bodies, it reaches different dimensions of our psyche. This sexual energy when channeled and mirrored through love can release deep fears and anxieties that we hold in our core, and which become an operating system. When these knots are cleared, the sexual energy can move upwards and we become more flowing.

One point I would like to explore is the question of "subtlety" that Virgil raises. The thing I've realized about subtlety is that is not less distinct, it is simply diffused over a broader surface and therefore unnoticeable to people with sharp focus (which is many of us as our culture trains us to have very sharp focus). The difference between subtlety and intensity is not the difference between sensuality and sexuality. People who like subtlety are not a-sexual people who prefer sensuality over sexuality. You can start out with the same intentsity of charge, and a person trained in subtle attunement will bring that sexual charge into a bigger embodiment and distribute it over a broader surface area, thus diffusing the charge in a larger space, during which time the sexual energy expresses itself in many blissful subtleties all throughout the Whole (rather than intensely in the part). Remember, the original charge started out in the same place (the genitals - this is the root), but the karezza practitioner brings this charge into a more subtle and broadly distributed experience of the whole. The sexual energy has the space to move through the system and clean it out through the force of love. As the charge distributes, if it gets too subtle, we can lose awareness of it. So the practice is to follow the subtelty as a whole bodied experience and to then pump up the Whole with love. In this way the Love and the Charge build and build, but you remain sustained in this state only by getting bigger and bigger in your capacity to give and receive (MIRROR) love. If you cannot receive the love, you are likely to have an orgasm in this state. The system becomes overwhelmed. The part of oneself that feels vulnerable being so loved will be co-opted by the part of the self that feels more comfortable and safe discharging and being accomplished in discharge rather than love. As though discharge were such a great feat! Actually, it is surrendering and loving and feeling the other's soul that is a great feat. Discharge is a biological occurrence. Our souls and our ability to love will continue on when our biological selves have ceased to be. Being earthly beings, we can use our bodies and biology to discover eternity through love. This is the beauty of it all. We need not deny anything, we only need to become as big and multidimensional as we really are. And we do it through gentle presence. Intense experiences can jar the nervous system away from gentle presence because the nervous system has to manage that input of energy. It is very hard to manage intense input while remaining totally present. Usually deeper operating systems of fear or survival kick in with intense experience. These operating systems are good at helping us to procreate or get out of danger, but perhaps not so good at helping us to develop compassion or broad presence.

For me, a spiritual path is one that includes the development of empathy and loving presence. This does not necessarily get developed through hot sex. In the presence of empathy and loving presence, our most embodied potential selves can emerge. In this process of mirroring tenderness in one another through the gentle Embrace of our Potency to Love, we begin to manifest and realize one another as divine beings. Divine beings have more to do on this earth than get as much pleasure as possible. The question becomes how sexuality can help us realize our greatest potential and purpose on this earth.

This beautiful post

made me smile. First, I'm so happy for you both. Second, I can't help remembering that you initially arrived here in part to enlighten us about the wonders of ejaculatory orgasms for women. Remember? Smile

I think many sexual, sensual people think they have discovered the holy grail in intense conventional sex. I know many of the older lovers here were, as far as I can tell, great conventional sex lovers before they began exploring karezza/tantra-style lovemaking. No doubt they felt the same way in their early days. I know I did.

It's so easy for newcomers to assume that if someone is passing up conventional sex it's because they have "problems" with sex, or "undiagnosed, rare POIS." It makes me smile...in part because I would probably have made the same (wrong) snap judgments in their shoes.

So debates like this are good. They're all part of the learning curve, and I only hope that our advocates for hot sex on this thread have a chance to set their judgments aside and experience both approaches.

There's no right or wrong here...and also no need to be condescending or rude even when we don't all agree.

P.S. I also want to mention

P.S. I also want to mention that New Start's observation is spot on:

"While the peak orgasm is yang, explosive, has a distinct begining and end the valey orgasm is implosive, more diffuse, more like streaming bliss, can be experienced like a waterfall by some and feels more nurturing."

The implosive force has largely been overlooked in our culture. We are only just beginning to get it - to understand feminine energy and how it works. Just as we have see that the universe is always expanding, only now are we beginning to understand the contractive and implosive aspects of the universe that counterbalance explosion and expansion. Time to learn about black holes and go through the portal! Fireworks are nice but not if we destroy ourselves in the process!

So, karezza is generally:
implosive not explosive
receptive not active
yin not yang
relies on the fluid body not the nervous system
cool not hot
nurturing not depleting
heart centered not groin centered
wholistic not fragmented
present not goal oriented

Even while this is generally true, karezza would not be dynamic and creative if it were only this and not that. As in the yin and yang, the dance of masculine and feminine goes infinitely in both directions, so there is ALWAYS yang in yin and vice versa, otherwise is would not be a dynamic, it would be flat.

However, being wholistic, karezza transcends and includes its opposite. It also predates its opposite. For example, the fluid body predates the nervous system body and in so doing it encompasses the nervous system - that is how it is able to heal the nervous system.

Since we knew wholeness in our embryological state before we even had a nervous system, it is hard for me to see that the firing up of the nervous system (hot sex) has as much to offer in our quest for wholeness as an orientation to the fluid body does. The whole point, I guess, is that we can access wholeness when we can sink down low enough to the fact of our basic wholeness and functionality. We don't actually need the nervous system to manage our sexuality or even to experience sexuality. When we stop letting our limbic brains manage so much, we realize who we really are. Let's honor the limbic system for helping us to navigate through our human ancestry thus far and also recognize that the amount of real estate it is taking up in our systems is unwarranted given the deeper and more whole operating systems that predate it. Ie, the operating system of our source and our soul, not merely our survival and prestige.

A thought: Perhaps sensuality is our soul's enjoyment of the physical world, and sexuality is our physical body's enjoyment in creating a new physical container to house the perpetuation of our soul through the passing on of genes.

pppk

Mmmm... I'm interested, what does pppk stand for? Peter picked a peck of kiwi's?

On to your desire for reaction. Well, you've gotten plenty of that. I observe that some folks post messages to dialog and learn, others for debate. I'm not exactly sure with you, but if its for debate, this will be my only post on this thread as I'm definitely not interested in debating this subject. Practicing karezza needs no justification, its purely experiential. On the asumption that you are genuinely curious about what this is but have some doubts, I'll respond with this.

There is no right or wrong, good or bad implied here, as I said its experiential. For us who engage in sex without orgasm it has done many positive things for our relationships, that's why we do it. For myself I want to enjoy, be bonded to, and maintain a long term satisfying partnership with as much harmony as possible. Karezza does as these things and more, fabulously. If you can do that with regular orgasming then all the more power to you, I have no desire to convince you other wise.

As far as a desire to satisfy your partner sexually, I couldn't agree more with you. Not only do I want to do that, I want the absolutely best sex I can possibly have as often as I can possibly have it. Again, karezza does this wonderfully. When my wife and I moved from conventional, orgasm style love making to gentle non-orgasming love making, not only was it much more pleasurable and satisfying for both of us we engaged much more often and for a much longer time. Mmm... sex more often, much longer, and MUCH more satisfying, with broader benefits for my entire relationship, I think I'm sold.

As Gary said, you simply try it for yourself then go back and do it the way you're used to, and compare. When you get a partner, as it sounded like you didn't have one now, let us know what you think then.

Wow, a lot of reactions...

Wow, a lot of reactions... This is one active forum!

But fuck, you write long posts. :D I haven't read everything yet, because the weather outside is too nice at the moment, but I will come back to it. I'll just state the most important things on my mind.

I'm going to split this post into three parts so it's easier to reply:

Point 1

I'm going to try and make my points as short as I can:
- Reading this website, it seemed like the people here believe that hot, dirty, rough, orgasmic, pervy sex is inferior to karezza.
- I absolutely love hot, dirty, rough, orgasmic, pervy sex.
- I know that giving women this kind of sex gives them insane pleasure and that they love this.
- Ultimately, I want to know the truth. The reason I do what I do now is because I believe that is the best way to have great sex. I have invested time and energy in this. I have gotten a lot of enjoyment from this. I post here not because I think what you say is stupid. I post here because I am afraid it is true. Because that would mean that I am on the wrong path. That would also mean that I may have to miss out on some things I love if I were to try karezza. Imagine a man who values truth and believes in God and reads information that implies that his God does not exist. Wink

Point 2

- If it is indeed true that karezza is even better than the greatest orgasmic sex, then you can sign me up. But don't you guys mean that it does not give as much immediate pleasure, but that the harmony in the relationship gets better? Like, how vegetables may not taste as good as hamburgers, you eat vegetables and not hamburgers so that you feel better during the time you're not eating? (Vegetables = karezza, hamburgers = orgasmic sex, obviously)

Point 3

- There are many wacky belief systems in the world. Whatever you believe, there is someone in the world who believes the complete opposite with great conviction. I do not know if you speak from some sort of wacky belief system, or if your beliefs are based on reality and a search for truth.
One thing I am afraid that has happened for at least a significant percentage in your community, is that the reason karezza appeals to you is because it is not dirty, and therefore not bad, and that you can therefore do it without guilt, shame, and other negative feelings.

When I watch porn, I have a mental hangover. I feel bad afterwards. This is the way it is, because I have for years associated porn-watching with feeling bad about myself, feeling angry at myself, feeling worthless and low self-esteem. Now I almost can't watch porn without these feelings. When I challenge myself to not masturbate, and then I do, then I feel bad afterwards. When I want to give a girl pleasure in bed and afterwards I feel that she did not completely enjoy it, then I feel bad afterwards. These may be subtle feelings or strong feelings. But I know that some people associate strong negative feelings with real sex. Especially in the United States, where sex is taboo for many and many are taught that sex is bad, and it's even worse if you enjoy being dirty and naughty. Karezza may very well be a way to enjoy sex without the associated feelings of shame for some of you. If that explains the benefits of karezza, then a person who does not feel shame around sex may not need karezza.

For example, a person said this above: "I denied it too at first until one night i was thinking about a girl i met and decided i respect her and wouldn't think naughty thoughts of her..." I'm not saying he represents the average karezza proponent, but this man equates thinking naughty thoughts of a girl with disrespecting a girl. It is perfectly possible to respect a girl while also wanting to fuck her to pieces. However, if you do not believe this, then karezza may solve a lot of cognitive dissonance and other negative feelings.

Point 4

"Generally speaking, I think one concern is men get so focused on reaching orgasm they tend to minimize the intimate, affectionate, emotional connection, foreplay stuff that goes along with sex."
The good literature about sex I've read states that great sex can only happen in a fulfilling relation based on trust and respect, that strong emotions enhance the sexual experience (and even that great sex without strong emotions can't happen), that foreplay is crucial, or even that sex is everything; it's not about your penis in her vagina, it's about awakening her sexuality and engaging her mind and making her feel special and appreciated and letting her enjoy being a woman and being sexual and naughty. And that immersion in the moment, losing yourself in the moment is important for great sex. And that it is crucial for the sex and the relationship to reconnect emotionally and be very affectionate and intimate right after the sex.
In fact, it may be that many attributes of karezza (except for the not focusing on orgasms) are also recommended by the sex experts whose stuff I read.

Question

Karezza's power is in keeping (very) long-term relationships good. Imagine you have a purely sexual relationship or you have sex once or only a few times. Would you then agree that orgasmic sex is superior to karezza sex, since karezza focuses on bonding and not pleasure?

Thanks!

Nonsense

QUOTE: "One thing I am afraid that has happened for at least a significant percentage in your community, is that the reason karezza appeals to you is because it is not dirty, and therefore not bad, and that you can therefore do it without guilt, shame, and other negative feelings."

The above is complete and utter nonsense. Who do you think you are talking to? Most of the Karezza group here are the generation of the "sexual revolution". Your generation didn't invent hot, raunchy sex.

Darryl, Rediscovered, Quizure, Snowy Owl, Virgil, Hotspring, Me, Marnia - have guilt and shame? Are you kidding? Is there guilt and shame in the posts of the above people? Or in the tone of this site? Or at yourbrainonporn - who's motto is "saving the world one erection at a time"?

The men who arrive here with porn addiction rarely have any moral qualms about using porn, they just want to stop and get their erections or brains back to normal. Have you noticed that we cheer the guys on when they report back to us that they had hot, raunchy sex and a big bad hard-on? Most of our time is spent discussing the status of guys ding-dongs and how soon their equipment will be ready to roll.

Where do you get this crap about guilt, shame, or sex negative feelings? UGH

You said you haven't bothered to read the answers. Maybe you should before posting another comment.

My advice PPPk,

is to stay with the hot stuff until you hit a wall, or get tired of the merry-go-round. That's what many here did. It's certainly what I did. Smile

Fact is, you won't be able to feel the benefits of karezza now anyway. I suspect your brain chemistry wouldn't register much pleasure from it. Your reward circuitry has morphed to need superstrong stimuli from the sound of it. Enjoy them! No worries. If you change your mind later, you'll need time to recalibrate - just like the porn folk. (Your partner might, too.) Big deal. Then you may find out what we're babbling about. Wink

In the meanwhile, just be good enough not to make silly assumptions because some poster used the word "naughty" as shorthand for "wanting to fuck her to pieces," or because you can't imagine giving up rough sex without some unhealthy, moralistic motive. I honestly don't see any basis for such imaginings, and I don't think you would either had you been a regular forum member for a while.

I'm not sure

I'm not sure how I got to this website, but it wasn't because I had POIS, or think sex is dirty, or that I was having problems in my relationship.

In fact, I was in a brand new, wonderful sexual relationship...but this man was so different (very slow and gentle)...and that got me googling "tantra" and that is how I eventually got to this place. As I read, the appeal of it started to sink in.

Why was it appealing? Because *this* is the way I've yearned to make love pretty much my whole life. I've always been a woman who loves to orgasm through having my cervix touched with the penis--but those moments would usually last only seconds because my previous lovers would orgasm as soon as that happened.

The whole "first I give you oral and then you give me oral and then we screw" kind of sex never appealed to me. It just felt so forced--not organic at all.

And "regular" sex was always something that seemed to have to escalate in order for it not to become boring. "Let's see, if I wear these crotchless panties, that will excite him" or "I guess we could have anal because that would be different" etc. And what usually ends up happening with all that (if you have ever been married a long time or know people who have been married a long time)--the wife starts withholding sex. Why? Because she has an innate fear that if she continues to give sex to her husband and continues to escalate what they do to "alleviate the boredom," then eventually, he's still going to get bored. And what do you do then? You are out of ideas and you no longer seem "fresh" to your husband.

So as I read about karezza (and I dearly love the books by Diana Richardson), as a woman, it all just sang to me.

Here I am reading about sex where not only does the penis touch the cervix, but it stays near the cervix...for as long as you want it to stay! To me, this is like absolute heaven.

I have no idea if other women feel this way, but I can only speak for myself. To have my man inside me and to feel his energy (not thrusting energy, but pure ecstatic energy) is the best thing I can ever imagine happening to me. I have said this before, but now that I have experienced this, I feel I can die happy and fulfilled.

My lover and I have gone back to regular friction-based sex a few times just to see how it feels and it is numbing compared to what you feel through your genitals with karezza.

I don't think this is something that you can just "do" because someone tells you it feels better. You have to be at a point in your life when you are ready for it and you have the right partner (I feel).

The influence of porn in so many lives (men and women) has taken people even further away from what this is all about. It is the antithesis of porn, but not because it's good versus evil or naughty versus nice. It's because it is about being so still and so present that you can feel your lover's heartbeat through his genitals as opposed to knocking your parts together while you fantasize about the impending orgasm.

To make it the best it can possibly be, *both* partners have to be present and conscious and aware. It's not something you can do on your own while the other person just goes along doing what they've always done (well, you can, of course, but you won't get the true ecstasy of it). Once you find someone who can focus and be with you in the moment, you will see what I mean. When I relax my pelvic floor and vagina, my lover literally groans because it feels so good to him. I know the men here can talk more about what happens from the male side, but all I can tell you is we spend more time "penis-in-vagina" now than we did in the beginning of our relationship--because *neither* one of us ever wants to stop.

rediscovered

So it sounds like for you

So it sounds like for you karezza is especially stimulating because his penis stays near your cervic the entire time, which feels incredibly good for you. It is also good because you are both present and very aware of yourselves and each other.

The first point, that it feels good because it touches your cervix, is interesting. For what it's worth, as far as I know most women find stimulation of the cervix very uncomfortable. Only a small percentage enjoys that. But in a way, you see karezza as a way of stimulating your cervix, which means it functions as a sort of sexual technique or special position - a particular technique to stimulate you in a specific way. Do you reach orgasm this way?

The second point, that you're more in the present moment, can make the whole sexual experience better, but this is the case with "normal" sex, too. Perhaps karezza allows more "immersion" into the present moment, but that is debatable.

:-)

No, it's not about a special technique nor position~~

It's about being so relaxed and receptive and trusting that your lover is allowed to go in that area near the cervix (during "pounding" sex, most women close down that area for fear of being injured)--and that area is called "the garden of love" in the Richardson book (Tantric Sex for Men) because it is where the penis also feels best. (and so many men and women never get to experience this)

I *could* orgasm that way very easily, but I choose to not take it to that level but instead, breathe and relax and let the waves rush over me without letting it get to that point. To me, that feels better than a "normal" orgasm. And sometimes, without my trying, an orgasm will happen anyway, but it feels different and it doesn't make me want to stop having sex as a normal orgasm would do (I'm usually "done" for awhile after an orgasm and ready to separate and go about my day rather than linger in bed).

If either one of us has an orgasm in this way, it's fine. But we just prefer to have things last as long as possible and we love that when we don't orgasm, the sexual charge between us never diminishes.

rediscovered

seek the truth

PPPK, you need to seek the truth for yourself, it doesn't matter what other people think and say, who knows what their agendas are. If you want the truth you need to experience this for yourself, find a partner and give it a go for 3 weeks try to hold back orgasm and conserve your seed, if you don't like it after 3 weeks you can always go back. but atleast you could say you tried it, and that will earn you a lot of respect.

I have never seen a more

I have never seen a more intense debate here on Reuniting. Good work people! Creative exchange, even if heated up a bit, is healthy. Marnia isn't all cool yin, hey? We sould all just remember after so much rhetoric to practice what we preach and remember to do some karezza after such discussions!

It's interesting to look at our beliefs about sexuality. But there is also a lot of raw experience too - which informs our beliefs and is also just the general climate we live in. Navigating the American sexual landscape as a sexual person is a wonderous ride.

My beliefs are one thing. But the huge range of sexual experiences, preferences, and practices that make up our cultural life right now is another thing. Just because I don't identify as someone who thinks sex is "dirty", doesn't change the fact that actually, a lot of very violent and inappropriate sexual muckiness, shittiness, has transpired throughout human evolution, and continues to be perpetuated and practiced in infinite gradations, a testament to the human creative capacity for working out pain and suffering and making cultures and economies out of. Yes, the process of exploring sexuality takes place on all levels, all a jumble for everyone.

I grew up in about the most liberal background you can find, with nudity the norm from a young age within a community setting, and two parents who are still in love. They had and still have a very sexual relationship and were open from a very early time in talking about masturbation as healthy. Nothing in my background ever told me that sex was dirty or bad, nor do I carry that attitude into my sexual life. A feeling that conventional sex was morally tainted was not my impetus behind exploring karezza, nor is it why I now practice karezza.

Still, while my general belief system says that healthy sex is fundamentally good, that does not change the fact that morally violent sexual acts do happen and are perpetrated, which I most certainly do judge as "bad." I do feel that the porn industry condones violence towards women, and I think this is "bad", for men and women. I have numerous female friends who have been raped or molested, and the negative impacts of this imprint on their minds and bodies is real and very negative. Imagine getting ovarian cycsts every month, having 7 day long heavy periods, and blisters on your vagina as post traumatic stress symptoms, even 15 years after the incident? Imagine trying to have a sexual relationship within this context? Now, this did not happen to me. But it has been very, very sobering and saddening to discover these things in the context of my work as a massage therapist. The fallout from sexual abuse is huge, and reverberates in an ever-widening circle. While Sex per se is not dirty, very dirty things happen to people sexually. If people who think violence against women are considered prudes who just have sexual hangups and think sex is dirty, then please, discount me from the discussion. But don't think that in the meantime I won't be enjoying sex immensely, and madly in love!

Ultimately, its all a spectrum. There is no black and white. We cannot condemn people who go into reenactments of their shame story in order to work it out. We cannot judge them for their healing process, or the work they are doing on our behalf. But if in "working it out" the trigger just gets reset, and reset, and reset, and the therapy, instead of healing, simply reinforces a really sad infrastructure, then we might want to explore other ways of being, especially the ancient and compassionate wisdom traditions related to sex and vitality.

Hello, apologies for bumping

Hello, apologies for bumping this old thread, but it was a very interesting conversation and I hope the admins don't mind. Let me just say that from my own experiences I tend to agree with PPPk. I'm not bashing on you guys, and like him, I just want to get to the bottom of it. If there's something better, then I'd be happy to try it. In fact I'm looking forward to trying karezza because of what you guys have said. I like to keep an open mind and my goal is to have the most pleasurable sex as possible for both myself and my partner. With that said, I want to hear your thoughts on the path that led me to what I currently believe.

It seems to me that women need to be submissive to the man in order to be fulfilled. The man needs to dominate her, lead her, and be her emotional rock. No doubt you've heard about the recent erotica series "Fifty Shades" by EL James. This has been all over morning talk shows and been dubbed "mommy porn", gaining almost a cult following. It is a story of a young girl being swept off her feet by a man who indulges in BDSM and kinky sex. What do you make of this? This is nothing new, and I believe one of the first is "Story of O" published in 1954, the story of a woman who's basically treated as a sex slave, and likes it. What does this mean about the "true" desires of women? What of another popular read "My Secret Garden" by Nancy Friday, who's a sex therapist and basically describes what her patients come to her with. It is quite explicit, and describes various types of fantasies of regular every day women, who's marriages are dying due to the dull sex and a lack of attraction. Fantasies like being fucked by a gang of black men, being raped, having sex with an audience etc. Some women are disgusted at their own minds and have no idea why it turns them on, but overtly in a dying and sexless marriage, these are the thoughts they think about when with their husband.

***As an aside, speaking of porn, have you heard about the book "A Billion Wicked Thoughts" ? It is very interesting. Among the topics covered is a clear divide between male porn and female porn. Not only that, but similar to the notion that the internet enabled anonymous, easy and fast access to visual porn for guys, the authors in that book discover a parallel trend in e-book sales of erotica for women - that they're skyrocketing. Do you think that perhaps this type of 'porn' catering to the female audience might have the same effect as visual internet porn can do to men?***

Women's sexuality is extremely complex. Here's an article in the NY Times by Meredith Chivers describing her work as a sex psychologist - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?pagewanted=all She basically finds that women have no idea how to rationalize what they want, and that there is a disconnect between what physically turns them on versus mentally. This is also very alien from what men experience. Its pretty simple for us because we have a pretty obvious physical response. It is also the reason why it has been impossible (thus far) for the pharmaceutical industry in finding the cash cow that is viagra for women.

What about the perspective from evolutionary psychology? What drives female attraction to the alpha males? The ultimate goal for most male species on earth is to spread his seed as much as possible, whereas women become adept at choosing the 'right' one. Males can and will, if presented with the chance, impregnate as many females as possible, ala the mouse study where it shows time to ejaculation is rather stable when presented with novel female. Given this, with karezza and non-orgasmic sex, it seems 'unnatural'. In fact, in terms of evolution it is particularly advantageous for females. Why would a male spend all that time and energy on one female without wanting to propagate his genes? Bonding is of no use to the man - the female however, gains protection and resources of the male without the 'burden' of pregnancy. This is the ultimate cuckold. If karezza is the answer then life on earth simply would not exist. How can the pleasures of this exceed the ultimate purpose of every living thing on the planet - to propagate its genes to the next generation? It is unnatural, and a disadvantage in most living species in the world for a male to bond with and have only one partner. Interestingly, it may be the absolute ideal for the female. This is because she gains 100% of his resources, his protection, as does her children. Further, she rids of competition by keeping the one male from fertilizing other females. The play of these opposing forces are rife in nature and evident in how female sexuality has evolved, detailed in the book "The Evolutionary Biology of Female Sexuality" by Thornhill and Gangestad. Withholding orgasm is a detriment for men, while an advantage for women. Curiously, there is ongoing debate about the evolutionary purpose of the female orgasm and the function of the clitoris. Perhaps it may just be what the penis is to clitoris as the tail is to our tailbone, a genetic remnant.

This perspective from evolutionary biology is also what the PUA community relies and calls upon, for men to recognize and mimic what it is that drives sexual behavior in women. It is a quest to understand what women want and how they want to be treated and what their subconscious tells them. In more spiritual terms, perhaps you're familiar with works of David Deida, "The Way of the Superior Man", which talks about sexual poles between partners, and that in a balanced relationship one must always occupy one end of the spectrum, a masculine energy and a feminine energy. All this has led me to believe that women are attracted to dominance, physical as well as social. I also believe that this needs to manifest in and out of the bedroom for both to be sexually satiated as well as for attraction to last in a relationship. I believe this is key for a "passionate" relationship versus one where couples become complacent friends and roommates rather than lovers.

50 Shades

I think the popularity of the books you mention above shows *nothing* about women's true nature, but instead, shows how miserably hollow society has become...we aren't filled up with love and so we try to fill ourselves up with sex. When we become loving beings (in general, toward everything, not just another human) we have less need for sex and violence and/or violent sex. This applies to both women and men.

totally agree with you

 

When I was reading erotica I enjoyed the Nancy Friday book but all it shows is how we act in various ways largely unconsciously when we are out of balance.

My perspective on sex, love and life has changed completely since getting into this with my partner. I can understand people not understanding though and that's fine. It has to be experienced. Sex can indeed be a very hollow physical act, and being driven by neurochemicals that drive you apart and separate rather than make you feel one with everything and your partner.

The evidence is all around us.

Rachel, I don't think its

Rachel, I don't think its "hollow". I think the difference is lust and love, and I think there is a time for both.

Through the erotic stories and fantasies enjoyed by women, albeit extreme (just like porn is extreme, or even entertainment in general - think action movies, drama films, crazy tales of romance), it shows that women like to be desired, and through experience, I began to understand that this is what women enjoy most about rough sex (note: not violent). It is the ultimate display of desire. It isn't "honey, can we have sex?" It is where the man can barely control himself and there is this explosive carnal desire to fuck her. What's more, the receiving partner is the object of this desire - she is the one who ignites this powerful animalistic lust within him. She is the one who makes him want to rip her clothes off and fuck her on the kitchen floor, and there is nothing that can stop him fucking her into submission. I think this sort of raw, forceful, dominant nature is why women have rape fantasies, being tied up/restrained, being gang banged (desired by more than 1 man). Hell, even if it were the woman initiating this, as a man I'd be pretty turned on too, though, only once in a while, because if shes the one fucking you all the time, instead of you her, then the balance begins to tip and the masculine/feminine poles begin to reverse, and resentment begins to build.

Now I don't dismiss the idea of karezza. Some of the experiences of people on this forum, if true, are pretty amazing (especially penis near relaxed cervix move! I know how much women love feeling a man so deep within her :) ). I'm going to try this instead of vanilla slow sex. Like I said, there is a time for love and lust, but it just seems as if people here hail karezza to be the only, or "best" way to achieve sexual satisfaction. I've learned that if there is one word describing how to live a "fulfilling" life, its 'balance', and I would urge you to passionately ravish each other once in a while, culminating in a pile of quivering flesh drenched in each other's juices.

?

Who said there isn't lust with karezza? And how do you know we don't ravish each other, but in a different way?

Don't be so sure that people enjoying karezza aren't living fulfilling, balanced lives. Unless you've experienced it, you really don't know. I've never had sex so good, ever. And no rape, no bondage, no fantasies required.

What is lust, and what isn't?

Are you sure you aren't confusing lust with attraction? Because the way I see it, they are two different things. Attraction is healthy, normal, and necessary for bonding people together. Lust, on the other hand, uses that attraction and hijacks it to get its own rocks off, or in other words, too strong of an attachment is formed to the pleasure that comes from the attraction, leading to either orgasm or blue balls.

I have never experienced karezza before (let alone any other type of sex), but after reading about it on here, I had always assumed that it was based on attraction and not lust, and that if two people had lustful sex but didn't orgasm, it wouldn't be much better than what you guys call "edging". Do I have an inaccurate impression of this?

Lust

When I say lust, I just mean when my lover and I are together, we really, really want each other. That's all. I don't just love him like I do my grandmother, lol.

Oh.

So, what you're saying is that you make love to him even more intensely than you did to your grandmother! I totally understand you now, Rachel.

:-)

So how do you define lust, FF?

Perhaps it's because we only see each other on the weekends, but we definitely have what I consider lust toward each other when we get together...but that doesn't mean we can't take that lust and turn it into karezza/tantra (actually, we find it to be a wonderful antidote because we can stay together *so* long and it calms us both down and brings us to a mellow, euphoric state).

I'm happy we don't get together and immediately have fast, orgasmic sex (like we did in the beginning of our relationship)...because then we'd have a whole weekend together where we would probably get on each other's nerves, lol.

If true?

Now I don't dismiss the idea of karezza. Some of the experiences of people on this forum, if true, are pretty amazing

It's fine to come on here and let us know your opinions about everything.

It's even fine to come on here and tell aging baby boomers all about the wonders of ravishing sex, as if it's a brand new concept.

But it's not cool to sneak in underhand comments suggesting we are liars.

Bad wording. I was not

Bad wording. I was not accusing people here who share their experiences as liars. There is no reason to lie on an anonymous forum where people are meant to help each other. What I mean to say, is if those experiences were true as a whole, as in scientifically proven to be causative, or for the majority. If someone told you they smoked a pack a day til 90 and never got cancer, while true, is not the truth about cigarettes and cancer. I have not accepted that karezza causes more relationship harmony as oppose to other types of sex or any other reason. Experiences have value, but are considerably less persuasive than if consistently confirmed by scientific studies.

Perhaps there is a study with randomized couples who do 3 months each of regular sex and karezza, show that people release more oxytocin or dopamine or report higher satisfaction in the karezza condition? Or how about a longitudinal study showing decline in divorce rates and healthier relationships on karezza versus otherwise? What about a particular specie that show preference for semen retention for bonding purposes, similar to what warmth and comfort did for Harlow’s monkeys? In fact, many researchers have capitalized on technology seeking to identify “love” in the brain via fMRI studies. Even before, I remember reading about one expert in body language and facial expression being able to predict with astounding accuracy as to whether a couple’s marriage would last by observing them interact for a mere 10 minutes on video. I only encourage you to take it a step further and show, not tell, the rest of the world of what may be possible through karezza.

You cite the “baby boomer” years as the beginning of some sort of revolution of sexual liberation, a sexual awakening, but yet the truth of the matter is when you look at divorce rates since your time, they have been through the roof. Self reported figures measuring happiness have declined in women with respect to men over the decades. Teenagers are having sex younger and engage in riskier behavior younger. You have girls pledging celibacy yet having anal sex because it doesn’t ‘count’. Genital herpes now affect 1 in 4 females ages 12 and up. These numbers are obtained through studies, and while they may not show causation, at least identify a disturbing trend. Don’t even get me started on the shocking debt hole your irresponsible generation left for mine to slave away at. Just because you’re older or from a different decade doesn’t automatically make you wiser or right. In fact, I would argue the opposite where every generation improves upon another.

I really do appreciate people sharing their experiences, and hopefully some from both sides of the argument. Please don't patronize me for questioning your beliefs.

Isn't karezza just one way of

Isn't karezza just one way of approaching the issues of smoother bonding while minimizing fallout? There are other traditions that don't forego orgasm. No one can say for certain how well these other traditions compare to karezza. And there could be still other ways. Perhaps even better ways.

It might even be that if couples had as much sex, quantitatively and qualitatively, as karezza couples are having, the orgasm fallout would't matter. The problem is how to get to humans to that point while keeping orgasm in the picture.

*scratches head*

Our generation was badly misled by the same myths about sexuality that you seem to be championing. Slowly some of us are working out, by trial and error, what increases harmony between couples. Feel free to join the exploration or not, but don't assume that you are the first generation to believe that hot sex would cure all ills.

If you are seeing "patronizing" here, I suggest you look in the mirror.

Quite the opposite actually.

Quite the opposite actually. Your generation has turned society upside down. While I have no problem with women's rights and equality, I do believe in gender roles, and that it is natural for women to be in a supportive role. It is feminine and this behavior is attractive to men, and as I argue above, masculine behavior by men is attractive to women (dominance).

By definition, the relationship between two people cannot be equal, there is always a leader and a follower, dominant and submissive, one in the masculine and one in the feminine. You can't have two heads to one body. This is not limited to heterosexual couples either. It is a dynamic observable in any social interaction even in groups of friends.

However in recent history, women are becoming hyper masculine, reversing natural gender roles defying our entire history. Further, this generation of mothers has created a legion of "metrosexual" men who are oh so in touch with their feelings and taught that it's OK to be a stay at home dad while mommy brings home the bacon. It isn't really about the money. A man dependent on a woman is deeply unattractive. Compare the behavior of men in early black and white films of Hollywood to today's "rom-coms" where some mama's boy somehow finally gets the hot cheerleader when she realizes just "how sweet" he is. More often that not, the masculine "jock" type is ridiculed. This is what is currently being taught as a result of beliefs held by your generation.

So when I argue that men need to be more dominant both in and out of the bedroom, I am not "championing the myths about sexuality" your generation put forth. Men need to man up, and women need to women up. What you refer to the "hot sex" your generation discovered speaks more towards "its OK for girls to be sluts too!" This is not news to men ever since we've had a penis.

Fact: it is MUCH easier for a girl to get sex than it is for a guy. Chastity is not a virtue anymore. Girls who are "still a virgin" beyond high school are made fun of. I do realize that there is a double standard going on here, but this is just biology at play. A women's child bearing abilities are limited while those of men are not so much. The burden of a child means the women needs to be extremely careful in choosing the appropriate mate. This is why guys get the high five when they get laid while women would rather be discreet to protect their reputation.

A lock that can be opened by a lot of keys is a shitty lock, but a key that opens a lot of locks is a master key.

lawyerd wrote:

[quote=lawyerd] ... it is natural for women to be in a supportive role. It is feminine and this behavior is attractive to men, and as I argue above, masculine behavior by men is attractive to women (dominance).

By definition, the relationship between two people cannot be equal, there is always a leader and a follower, dominant and submissive, one in the masculine and one in the feminine. You can't have two heads to one body.

... men need to be more dominant both in and out of the bedroom ... [/quote]

So let's say they can't go out of the house without a male escort.

Tantra

Your comments make me think you are someone who could *really* benefit from tantra/karezza.

In one of the Richardson books (the one written for men), they talk about how there would be no wars if all men were able to be fully loved and received by a woman. From the book ("Tantric Sex for Men"):

"Woman is the source of love, the mother of love, and I, as a man, am able to tap into that love. For me, love is what it is all about. Being in the here and now, I've discovered that in stillness, including inner stillness during movement, I can tap into or connect with the "garden of love" in woman. And there is nothing more satisfying and touching than seeing a woman radiating, blossoming in love.

I do have hope for humanity. The only hope is for man to find a way through his screen of conditional sexuality, so that he may come to rest within his male authority. So that he can make peace with woman and make love to her body, heart and soul."

"The 1960s-era saying, "Make love, not war," is actually a truth. A lack of sufficient fulfilling or nourishing sex often results in anger and aggression. Changing a man's understanding, and therefore his experience of sex, naturally calls forth his original, authentic male qualities."

For example, how male qualities become distorted:

Power becomes abuse, domination
Presence becomes absence
Strength becomes hardness
Assertiveness becomes aggression
Wisdom becomes arrogance
Charisma becomes sexual manipulation
Will becomes stubbornness

And so on. A good thing becomes not-so-good.

I'm not sure how you arrived at this site (were you searching for information about porn addiction?), but you seem to think that somehow you know *better* than the others here. And here is the thing: Most of us have already done it your way...for most of our lives. And now we know better. You've never done it this way, so until you have...you just don't know.

Are you joking?

The way you mischaracterize our views here really baffles me and, frankly, the word "troll" comes to mind.

Clearly you've never read my book. I recommend that men take the leadership role in the bedroom, in keeping with the Daoist advice. If you want to learn please try asking questions instead of making random assumptions. If you just want a platform for your ill-informed views, consider finding a forum where they are more appropriate.

Well, my experience is thus..

Well, my experience is thus...
I spent a lot of time figuring out things like "how to best please a woman", and, how to have great orgasmic sex, yes, not to toot my own horn, but I am a great lover, at least as far as making women have orgasms and tingle in the right places....

And yet, all my girlfriends have left me. The first and only woman I taught female ejaculation said it was the first time she had many multiple O's close together. She dumped me the very next day....

They all left me and seemed to say the same thing. basically they didn't feel the connection bc all it was was just orgasmic sex. Using each other to get off and not actually "making love"

Oh, and these women that are addicted to these crazy fantasies and alpha male shit just don't know what they are missing, so they go for the raw animal passion bc it at least gives them something, IMO...

But I have at least one ex got back in touch with me recently and wanted to be with me bc I treated her better than anyone else. I didn't go for it bc even tho she apologized, she had put me thru some crazy shit and I wanted to be friends first to decide if I could really trust her again. I think she took this as somewhat of a rejection and she lives in another town and has a fiance now.

As far as karezza, well, not yet... But I have experienced solo cultivation. When I had my first non-ejaculatory orgasm that lasted like at least 30 seconds, possibly up to 2 minutes, I was hooked for life. The only difference between genital orgasm and whole body orgasm is that the blissful energy is expelled. As in gone. No more fun.

Trust me, an orgasm that is at 90%+ of a genital orgasm but lasts as long as you can hold the energy current doesn't feel less intense or less pleasurable. It is fantastic, and leaves a nice afterglow.... Not a hangover...

Thanks for your comment, your

Thanks for your comment, your experiences certainly seem counter-intuitive. What you describe as a full body orgasm sounds neat. I have been experimenting with the male multiple orgasm and as far as I know you're suppose to squeeze those PC muscles right when you're about to cum. Honestly I don't know how safe/clean that is. It's kinda like swallowing your vomit, or squeezing your nostrils shut when sneezing.

No, you can't "hold back" an

No, you can't "hold back" an orgasm with sheer muscle. That is impossible. You have to change the pathway of the energy/fluid using the sacral pump and stuff. And it IS energy. Ever notice how semen exhibits phosphorescence as in it has a sort of glow to it? And I really figured it out mostly by reading Mantak Chia's book Cultivating Male Sexual Energy. And there are other books people recommend on here teaching similar stuff.

I doubt good sex leads to bonding

I think we get by despite it. There are many reasons biology points us into the direction of other partners and to finding our existing partner less attractive.

Karezza is the opposite. Our existing partner is more attractive. And although I might look at other women I don't want sex with them. I want as much sex and closeness as possible with my partner. An hour a day or more would be ideal. I have never experienced anything with the depth of my love and feelings that I have now, not just towards my partner but to other people too.

I really think Gary and Marnia have uncovered some deep truths.

Even other people regularly comment to each of us how young we look. I had someone think I was 10 years younger for real the other day.

I have no desire to experience orgasms whether valley, peak or cliff. That's because the continuous feelings of ecstatic love are so great and they continue 24 by 7.

When I was doing regular sex it was never, ever like this.