Submitted by Newbie on
Printer-friendly version

I havent gotten the book yet, but before I do,
I need some clarification on the stuff I have read on this site so far.

Does this book propose that Women hold off their orgasm as well as the guys?
I mean us guys I can understand... but women???
I dont know of any gurls who would even consider this.

For us guys to hold off orgasm (ejaculation) makes sense,
and as far as I know tantra and the ancient eastern sexual
techniques advised it too.... but why the women? They dont
lose all interest in sex or their stamina after climax.
In fact I thought you gurls actually found it easier to
climax multiple times after the first initial orgasm.
So why would you need/want to hold it off?

well...

i'm a bit surprised to hear you say that you don't know of any girls who would consider such an approach!

as far as the multiple orgasm thing, it's completely different for EVERY woman. i personally am just like a guy in that department. after the "main event" i feel spent and no longer sexually charged. while some women may have multiple orgasms, i do not think this is the case for the majority of females. i know plenty of women who are, in fact, unable to achieve even a single orgasm without a great deal of effort and/or "help" from vibrators etc.

the reason for avoiding orgasm is not simply to prolong the lovemaking session. the idea is that orgasm for males AND females alike is an energetic and neurochemical event with potentially far-reaching (and damaging) consequences. you can find plenty of information on this website about the "hangover" that we experience as a result of dramatic changes in our dopamine levels brought on by orgasm.

we're talking about brain chemistry here, not just ejaculation. orgasm seems to cause moodswings and other disruptions for about a two-week period after the event.

as for my personal experience... i have yet to make it past several weeks without orgasm, but since my partner and i have dramatically decreased our OVERALL number of orgasms (we have sex every 2 or 3 days and orgasm once every 2 to 3 WEEKS), i have felt an overall positive shift in my mood. we are both less hypersensitive and i don't cry nearly as much as i used to. HOWEVER i will say that in the days after an orgasm, especially the first week, i do experience weird moodswings, and he seems to as well.

so the idea is to avoid orgasm and thus achieve more overall emotional and spiritual harmony with your partner. it also, in my opinion, deepens your sexual connection with your partner when you explore this kind of approach.

i have always had amazing orgasms with my partner and never any trouble "getting there" so it is tempting to revert to our old ways at times, but in the long run i much prefer the overall increased feeling of wellbeing to the addictive spikes of pleasure during climax.

hmmm

....roger that. thanks

just read the site more carefully and...
it all makes sense now....

'guess now I actually have to make the effort to read this book ....
...well... win sum lose sum i guess.

for newbie

I was introduced to the practice of taoist sexual alchemy three years ago by my roommate at the time who lent me books by Mantak Chia, which promote sexual exchange without conventional climax.

I then met a partner with whom I had an amazing spiritual and sexual connection, and we began our journey into this exciting realm of energy, love, and sexual expression. He held back from ejaculating for most of our encounters for a two year period, and I became more adept at holding back on orgasm for longer periods of time, so that we could swim in that exquisitely charged space together. However, I usually chose to have an orgasm or two, because Chia emphasizes that chi is lost when sperm or egg are released, and that therefore it is less important for woman to foregoe orgasm, since the chi she loses is more from ovulation and menstruation than from orgasm (since she doesn't release an egg with each orgasm as a man does sperm). Chia did not have research on the effects of orgasm on dopamine levels as this site does.

I definately do feel a reduction of charge and energy after orgasm and have only now, being single again, begun to really explore the withholding of orgasm as an interesting and worthwhile thing to do as a woman. I have begun to use breathing and sound as tools to prevent me from going into orgasm, and through this experimentation have been having some of my first ejaculations.

I am finding that it is as valuable for women as for men to hold back on orgasm completely. I am enjoying the sexy/creative charge that lingers if I don't expend the orgasm, and the generally energized effect it has on my whole day. Because many women have trouble reaching orgasm at all, it may seem culturally confusing for any woman to want to hold back on orgasm. But the draining effects of orgasm are similar for women and therefore the energizing effects of holding off are also the same.

I'm very happy to see so many young couples in this forum exploring sexual evolution. This culture has become so consumerist, craving, and self-obsessed in all aspects of life that the resulting neurosis and energy depletion is naturally leading some people to wake up and reexamine how they choose to expend energy, how, and with whom. We may not be generation X after all!

May all beings bask in love, vitality, and health!

In my very limited

In my very limited experience, female ejaculation doesn't coincide with orgasm, though it is certainly a release and extremely pleasurable, and can be so stimulating that it can make it harder to avoid a "conventional" orgasm. I've only ejaculated a handful of times at this point,so I'm no expert, but so far it looks to me like it comes in spurts, sometimes starting off with a smaller amount, then leading up to a larger amount. I've managed to ejaculate without coming, though the time when I ejaculated the most amount of fluid, it was after a longer time period of arousal and was followed by an orgasm.

Funny that ejaculating and having an orgasm seem contradictory to most people as separate events. The whole premise of Chia's books is that orgasm and ejaculation are not the same thing.

I discovered ejaculation from focusing on my breathing in an attempt to avoid orgasm. In Taoist sexual alchemy the back channel is considered yang and the fron channel is yin. I've noticed that the pulling up feeling(yang) compliments the equally important and pleasurable sensation of pushing out (yin). It seems like pulling up would be yin and pushing out yang, but the pulling up draws energy up the backside (the yang side) and the pushing out sends it down the front side (yin side). Anyway, these are just arbitrary terms for a dynamic positive-negative polarity and charge. I've noticed that kegel exercises often focus on a woman's ability to grip, or hold on - but an equal amount of strength comes from the ability to push down and let go (this is the same strength a woman uses to give birth, and is basically the uterus bearing downwards). The two muscular abilities compliment eachother (you can't hold on if you don't let go).

So . . . when I was meditating on the yin/yang charge, trying to circulate it in my whole microcosmic orbit, I noticed that there is a smaller orbit in the vagina itself where the positive charge travels up the back wall, then turns around at the cervix, and flows back on the frontside before returning to the perineum. I was breathing in deeply to the pelvic diaphragm while pushing down, and this caused the ejaculation. I guess what I'm saying is that this release, while extremely orgasmic, is more of an outflowing and letting go than an intense peak from holding on or pulling in and up. It's like a different "yin" form of orgasm almost, tho there are probably millions of different kinds of orgasms.

So i'll keep experimenting with this and see if I can continue to have a large ejaculation without a conventional orgasm, and let you know.

In order to have this conversation at all we are having to resort to terms that seek to distinguish "conventional" "valley" and "yin" orgasms. The dictionary defines orgasm as "intense or paroxysmal excitement; especially : an explosive discharge of neuromuscular tensions at the height of sexual arousal that is USUALLY accompanied by the ejaculation of semen in the male and by vaginal contractions in the female."

I know my vagina throbs and contracts before orgasm at times. And men can "technically" have an orgasm (release sperm) without feeling pleasure. The only point to make here is that the potential for ecstatic, peak sexual experiences involving the body, heart, and mind are limitless. So if we're going to get really technical about it, I do consider these ejaculations as one of many ways to have an orgasm, just as I consider a valley orgasm a series of orgasms even though someone else wouldn't consider that experience an orgasm at all.

It would be interesting to hear from other women who ejaculate and find out if they see it as coinciding with orgasm or coming beforehand. It would also be interesting to find out what this kind of release does to dopamine levels in the brain.

Whatever happens neurochemically when we have a "conventional" orgasm, it allows us to experience something so intense that we momentarily are forced to let go of all sense of self and ego. This is why it's so pleasurable. I think that spiritual sexual practices have the potential of allowing us to lose our egoic sense of ourselves and experience our truly ecstatic divine nature, in all moments of the sexual act and not only in that moment when our brains are blasted with dopamine.

Very interesting. Thanks for

Very interesting. Thanks for the details.

I guess my next question would be, "do you notice any emotional separation from your partner during the two weeks after your ejaculation?" For me, that's the bottom line between one ecstatic experience and another. If it creates deeper union (over the two week period), then it's beneficial. If it creates separation or alienation, then it's another variation of biology's separation programming.

This is where much Tantra (and Chia's most recent work) may, perhaps, go in an unhelpful direction. They rationalize putting pleasure before deeper union - perhaps because they have not recognized the spiritual potential of union with another as a path to union with the Divine. In much Tantra the partner is just an instrument for raising sexual energy so one can unite with the Divine directly. Similarly, in some Taoist approaches, one uses one's partner as a source of yin nourishment. In contrast, what I seem to be learning is that by avoiding the highs and lows of orgasm, a couple can experience deeper feelings of wholeness, which help align them with the Divine - together. It's a slightly different concept.

Experiments are all valid and useful! I hope you will continue to share yours.

Thank you for organizing

Thank you for organizing this forum.

To answer your question about emotional intimacy and whether or not I feel closer or more alienated from my partner after ejaculation, i can only say that I haven't experienced this for long enough to observe those differences. It would be hard to eliminate all the other factors that could lead to emotional intimacy or alienation. Also, I've only recently started to try to stop having orgasms at all, started this practice on my own, and am just starting to explore it with a new lover.

In my previous partnership, where I was having conventional orgasms after a long period of valley orgasms, I didn't notice any crabiness or detrimental effect on my emotional connection with my partner as a result of it. Then again, I had nothing to compare it to, unless I think back to the earlier times when I wasn't able to have an orgasm from penetration at all, and THAT certainly made me crabby and emotionally distanced. So there's a big difference between not being able to have an orgasm and reaching a high orgasmic state but choosing not to have one, and the effects that has on your connection. The female ejaculation part is a new layer that is even more mysterious.

I'm experimenting with not having orgasms now because I can see that I have more energy and enjoy keeping that erotic charge and bringing it into other creative parts of life, not because I felt alienated by having orgasms. But it is an interesting thesis and especially makes sense when viewed from a biochemical standpoint, an angle your articles provide.

I certainly haven't noticed that Tantra puts an emphasis on pleasure over seeing the other's divinity, as you claim, but I am not very well read on Tantra. The only text I have read, "Tantra: Art Science Ritual" by Mookerjee is from the '70's I think and does not seem to me to emphasize pleasure over divinity. In fact, it doesn't even focus on sex alone, but explores every facet of tantric practice, from astromy to ritual to artwork.

Likewise, a look at Taoist Microcosmic Orbit Meditation doesn't focus only on sex, but it can be applied to sex. The first book I read of Chia's, "Awaken Healing Energy Through the Tao" is not focused on sex. Chia's book "The Multi Orgasmic Couple" was a real dissapointment after his earlier and more thorough books ("Healing Love Through the Tao" and "Taoist Secrets of Love")and seemed to be very technical, glossed-over, and shallow, I agree.

I think we have to realize, though, that there will always be people who will use techniques or wisdom for shallow purposes (ie, using Taoist practices to steal the yin essence from the female - as if this could even be done! Chia certainly isn't promoting this idea in his books). The fact that some people may misuse techniques certainly doesn't affect my own ability or desire to connect on a more meaningful level with my partner. It's just information; like the internet, people will use it for a variety of purposes, from cruising porn to writing in forums that seek to bring more harmony and love between the sexes.

Thanks again for your work putting together this site!

orgasm "depravation" vs. happy to pass

Thank you for the last four thoughtful and informative comments. I agree with hotspring and definately think there is a key difference between wanting an orgasm and not getting it and being able to orgasm at will but choosing to pass it by.
When I choose to give orgasm a miss because of severe post-orgasm headaches, I experienced amazing effects of the sort Marnia has written about and I could never have anticipated those feelings had I not been "forced" to experience them. They then kept growing after several lovely sessions without orgasm. The pleasure of this "cuddle-sex" increased in intensity and I became positively cuddle-nuts, almost following my wife around like a (horny) puppy but as it happens, she has been a cuddly junky all her adult life so now we kind of met on the same level. I'm saying this with a question: can it be that women on average have higher oxytocin production levels than men and that women could be less impacted by the prolactin surge than men are ? I will never forget the first time I suggested that my wife would try to forego orgasm as an experiment ... she looked like the girl who had paid for the butter and then didn't get any and being told she wouldn't get any ever ! Her facial expression was pained throughout the whole lovemaking experiment whereas she had always been having this glowing smile during sex, culminating in beautiful rapture. So we scrapped the idea that she should do what I did and we will have to see if there is new information arriving that would make it worth while for her to try again ... She never was and probably won't become a crabby person so maybe for our unique relationship we have found a good balance in me passing and she getting hers. I look forward to the discussion if ejaculation has the same effect on the neurology as orgasm ...

female ejaculation

okay, i'll start a new forum on female ejaculation then. hopefully we'll get some responses from other ladies out there who are ejaculating!

also, in relation to your wife's disinterest in the concept of not having orgasms, I'm wondering if she is able to postpone them for long periods of time (that's the first step)? If she can't, then maybe encourage her to find ways of holding back for awhile before having orgasm. Then once she's used to that, just stop for a "break" before she has come, and then see if she's open to the idea, once you've disengaged, of not continuing. You could both meditate together afterwards and bring the orgasmic chi back into your solar plexus, where it can be stored for use elsewhere in life.

happy lovemaking!

Hello everyone! Thank you

Hello everyone!

Thank you for maintaining this site, Marnia and Gary!!!

First of all, I would say – not the style is important, but the practitioner. Every knowledge could be misused. Tantra, Tao Love and Kareza have more in common, than we can assume!
All of these methods work through the same human body. If you practice Kareza, sometimes you are more passionate and make love with more active movements, or if you practice Tao or Tantra, often you relax in very tender embrace, without bodily movements. Even the channel's differences are superficial. In Tantra one makes kobra breathing, or spinal breathing through the spine, but in Tao the practitioner is taught to pass the energy flow through the back, Yang channel upwards, and through the front, Yin channel, downwards. Actually, it is the same. Even the Bodily Physiology states it. All of the impulses of the receptors – extero, proprio receptors, from the organs, etc., pass via the back side of the spinal cord and then, enter into the brain structures. Afterwards, all of the motor commands come downwards from the brain (which parts and functions are very interesting in relation with the ancient spiritual traditions and contemporary science as well), via the front spinal cord, where goes to the sympatic and parasimpatic systems, organs, bones, skin, muscles…
If one looks at the spinal nerves, he will definitely see the analogy between their intertwining and the channels Ida and Pingala from the Yogic and Tantric traditions. Some eastern teachings describe these two channels as straight – situated on the two sides of the spine. Do not they look very much the same way as the two trunks of the sympatic system?
It is the same as in the martial arts – it doesn't matter the style – after years, one realizes the similarities of all styles, and proficiency in one of them makes him easily proficient in the others too. Actually, no matter which channels one uses mentally, the others unused actively and consciously from certain traditions are used automatically too. And, in the long run, the feeling of all energetic system becomes deeper and subtler. One does not need already to lead the energy mentally, but only to observe its natural flow. This observation becomes more encompassing – one feels already not solely the etheric channels, but the whole energy body, the aura. That's why, I do not think one pathway or method differs greatly from another. All are just walking sticks on the journey of the Human Soul.
After a while, techniques, if they are still not automized, become a draw back, because the accent becomes the state of mind one can reach through the techniques, but not the techniques by themselves.
But, certain authors can mislead one, definitely. Mntak Chia is great, but if practiced literally, you can develop selfish vampirism, instead of giving and sharing your love with the partner and merging with him/her! I have been through this for several years – just blindly following his instructions. Anyway, it was good experience.
About the orgasm – having orgasm without the last part of it – the final energy release – gives one the opportunity to transform that bodily orgasm into, literally – Soul Orgasm, i.e., in pure spiritual joy and bliss, which charges and makes your life enchantingly beautiful!
In my opinion, pleasure is only the first step – if one stays there, he is being robed. But, if one goes further, toward the subtler bliss and Love, sex becomes inseparable part of love, which charges and sours! …

Be Healthy!!!