Submitted by gustavo andrade on
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I wonder what are the views of the people who visit this forum on vasectomy.
I see it as something that might subtract some pressure from lovemaking. So another question would be: How does that pressure come into being?

Vasectomy could also be something unnecessary if one is in a relationship where it is OK to be inside her only during non-fertile days.. Maybe rhythm/"standard days" in combination with non-orgasmic copulation should lower the probabilities of pregnancy enough to be considered "safe sex."

Another question would be:
Is passionate making out something undesired? Because, if it is the case that copulation-lovemaking with my partner is restricted (in order to avoid pregnancy )then the body's natural response seems to be an increase in passionate making out. Is this passionate making out like a "mini orgasm" whose long term effects (or short) could be compared to the effects of orgasm discussed in ?

I also found some information about vasectomy here:


We don't have a lot to say on this subject. Personally, I don't like surgical solutions to problems we may have the potential to solve in harmony with nature.

Fertility doctors advise would-be fathers to ejaculate frequently, so fresh, highly motile sperm are always ready to go. (Researchers have surmised that frequent masturbation by young men also serves this purpose.)

This insight implies that someone who ejaculates very SELDOM would eject sperm that have had a chance to break up a bit, and therefore wouldn't be especially fertile (the NEXT ejaculation would be very fertile, however, if it occurred soon afterward). This may explain why this practice has always worked for us with no birth control.

However, I think unwanted pregnancies are to be avoided at all costs, so I would never discourage you from taking whatever precautions you believe are necessary.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "subtract pressure," but if I understand what you're getting at, we would say that gentle, generous affection exchanged with a partner is the most "calming" (and ultimately the most fulfilling) way of avoiding sexual frustration.

About passionate kissing...make your own observations. If you are feeling very hot and hungry for sex after kissing, then you are probably sending your dopamine soaring. If you are feeling "fed" and very romantic and adoring, then you are probably balancing your neurochemistry through the contact.

Let us know what you learn! Thanks for writing.

Thanks, and just to

Thanks, and just to contribute more, I think that gentle is in the attitude towards the act not necessarily the act itself.
I am not sure yet but I do believe that in some circumstances, the attitude towards the act has more significance than the act itself.
For example, if I expect pleasure from an encounter then the encounter might be driven by my expectations and my perception of it as well, and this would not be gentle even while it might seem to be on the outside. On the other hand a rough adrenaline driven childish play with no expectations might be gentle, at least in the mind.
Now, if you take it further and into orgasm I've heard that orgasm every once in a while is actually beneficial for men, yet in order for that to happen men must be in touch with their "cycle."
And that if the man has feeling of separation afterwards it would follow that he did not orgasm following a cycle. I don't necessarily believe all of the above but I am willing to investigate it.

I have also seen that it is very hard to be aware of the subtle changes after orgasm or other passionate activities yet it is my inclination to believe that some of those activities have their place in a relationship.

I have experienced great feelings of wellbeing after non-orgasmic sex over long periods of time, the contact with the person becomes the orgasm, the sexual contact becomes the orgasm, and then there is no need for orgasm. I recently went all the way and it has been quite a "workout" to be aware of everything that started to happen in the mind. The feelings of projection for example.. I wonder if other people do not feel this or if they are in working relationships due to other factors that make them ignore these feelings or if it is simply different for everybody.
Also, when I went all the way I don't think it actually felt like a "good orgasm", in a way I felt as if I was robbed of something, the libido perhaps, at the same time I was trying to rationalize that there was something beneficial in what I had done, maybe something to learn from it. It was an important experience because it was the first time in the relationship, and her first time all together. At least it happened with lots of affection. Afterwards the ideas started to hit me, the idea that it was actually something violent, and after actually seeing myself doing it, it did have an air of violence and of wanting more. I try to be aware that sex is only part of the relationship, so that I don't lose touch with what is important, that is, with loving.
Right now I am experiencing the "hangover". Yet, I think that it is manageable if one is aware that it affects the way thoughts develop and that it is possible to be aware of those thoughts.

Thanks again for your input on vasectomy. I will still investigate it further. I notice that I am fearful of it because of its possible effects on overall lovemaking.

Thanks for sharing your experience

As the ancients wrote, "Know thyself." I think the kind of close observation you are engaging in ultimately answers most questions. I know that's how I began to discover interesting things about human mating neurochemistry.

My husband and I always say that we've learned just as much from our (few) orgasms as we have from adhering to the practice. Wink So in that sense, I agree with you that every experiment has its place. Orgasm should never be a source of guilt...just an opportunity to learn.

I do think intention plays an important role, and "gentle" and "vigorous" can be quite misleading...and yet, even with the best intentions I found I was unable to prevent symptoms of emotional separation during the two weeks after orgasm.

Of course for many years I was quite unaware of it because I wasn't watching for it. Still, I now think back to certain events during that time and see that it WAS at work.

Another thing I realized is that the low part of the cycle (and the change in my subtle energy(?)/feelings) wasn't always projected onto a partner. Sometimes it showed up as illness, financial screw-ups and general chaos in my life. A close friend, for example, had no interest in practicing this with her husband. For years things looked fine...and then came a bankruptcy, followed by her husband's desertion of her and their kids for another woman. Was there a link? I don't know, but it's possible.

I honestly think humanity has no idea how much this passion cycle manifests in our everyday lives. Where DOES all the scarcity programming infecting almost every culture come from? Could it be from feelings of depletion or lack or neediness during the post-passion recovery phase? Combined with the aching longing of those who are alone? I guess we'll never know except by trying something that creates feelings of wholeness. Certainly my husband and I have experienced increased abundance since practicing this together.

I suspect that if we humans did truly understand the impact of how we use our sexual desire, we would get serious about learning this other approach much more rapidly. Of course, this is a very metaphysical discussion, but I think it's as important as the science.

I think I've come out of the

I think I've come out of the hangover. I am filled with feelings of love and affection and they seem to be growing!
During the hangover I experienced many of the things that you describe as effects of it, yet remembering that these thoughts/feelings were post-orgasm reactionary gave me the edge needed to ride the wave until the brain "stabilized."
So, the most important thing was that the feelings did not lead to action, they were just there at certain times.
This has motivated me to equate orgasm with "though reaction" and so in this case the though reaction is like an orgasm in that it is neurochemically addictive. OK, so there probably isn't any dopamine released by wanting to do something about something (thoughts, memories, pain, desire, jealousy, fear) yet I think that the brain works the same way after carrying the reactionary process out, that is, the brain will release energy when you react (and this would be analogous to the orgasm) and it will then go into a post reactionary state of imbalance, or a series of reactions will follow. This is similar to the state of dopamine ups and downs. Note that the reactions are thoughts, and that these thoughts are mostly useless (jealousy, fear) or animal like. OK, so what I will try is to stop the reaction by waiting until the brain is out of the reactionary state, just like I waited until the brain was out of the dopamine ups and downs, and see if something comes out of that.
Sounds interesting! And it feels good too!
I've also noted that energy visualization transforms the passion of lovemaking into something else. There are interesting tricks to try. I tried visualizing that she was actually penetrating me with energy, the experience was amazing. Her response was that she actually took the "masculine" role. Something amazing was happening. I think that had I been regularly engaging in sex with orgasms I would never had the energy to do this.

Oh and thank you hotspring, I read your post and it was very informative. However, I am still considering the vasectomy approach. I can see that Partner-based birth control is something very important because it changes the way we think about sex and the synchronization you describe, the paying close attention to the body, is something that has to be part of any loving relationship that is able to do so. Thanks!

bardo state?

Gustavo -

I immediately thought of what the Tibetans call "bardo state" when you said: "so what I will try is to stop the reaction by waiting until the brain is out of the reactionary state, just like I waited until the brain was out of the dopamine ups and downs, and see if something comes out of that."

In The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, Sogyal Rinpoche says that the "whole of life and death [are] presented together as a series of constantly changing transitional realities known as bardos. The word bardo is commonly used to denote the intermediate state between death and rebirth, but in reality bardos are occurring continuously throughout both life and death, and are junctures when the possibility of liberation, or enlightenment, is heightened" (p.11)

In the case you describe, we could see the willingness to not react to the mental or physical addiction as the willingness to "die" into a new pattern of relating/perceiving.

Rinpoche further states: "The bardos are paticularly powerful opportunities for liberation because there are . . . certain moments that are much more powerful than others and much more charged with potential, when whatever you do has a crucial and far-reaching effect. [A bardo is] like a moment when you step toward the edge of a precipice . . . The greatest and most charged of these moments, however, is the moment of death. So from the Tibetan Buddhist point of view, we can divide our entire existence into four continuously interlinked realities: 1) life 2)dying and death 3)after death and 4)rebirth. These are known as the four bardos: 1)the natural bardo of this life, 2)the painful bardo of dying, 3)the luminous bardo of dharmata, and 4) the karmic bardo of becoming."

"Each of the bardos has its own unique set of instructions and meditation practices, which are directed precisely to those realities and their particular states of mind. This is how the spiritual practices and training designed for each of the bardo states can enable us to make the fullest possible use of them and of their opportunities for liberation. The essential point to understand about the bardos is this: by following the training of these practices, it is actually possible to realize these states of mind while we are still alive" (p.112).