Differing types of orgasms

Submitted by tantrabliss on
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I am reading the book and find it a great read that reminds me of Diana Richardsons books on tantra.

I do have one issue that comes to mind and raises some questions based on that there is many types of orgasms that women can have and also men.

I work as a sexological bodyworker that does tantric massage on women professionally and work with couples also.

I believe most women generally have an clitoris style orgasm and feel dissatified after sex or mastibation as described in Marinas book.

However when women have ejaculation orgasms and cervical push out style orgasms they radiate energy and love after the lovemaking session for hours and even days. These type of orgasms result in relaxing into the energy and letting go and are usually learnt with strong g spot stimulation.

I was talking with one women about ejaculation orgasms and she said for her that these types of orgams it is a emotional clearing for her and she feels great after sex and less needy and a lot more stable. The funny thing is that she learnt this type of orgasm using a vibrator!

I have been told by some women when they experince these deeper orgasms are not attracted to clitorus orgasms anymore.

Unfortunately only about 5% to 10% of women seem to have these deeper experinces. A lot of women do not even know where there g spot is.

I suppose by question is does having deeper cervical style orgasms drain you of energy and make you more emotional. I beleive not but would be interested in comments from women that do have these experinces.

Men too can have orgasms with no ejaculation as this is my personal experince. You actually do not loose energy and can make love for hours and still feel close to your lover after. Jack Johnson has a good method for learning this.

I would be interested in Marnias comments on my observations.

Different question

A bit of background first: my work evolved from the following question, which I asked of the Divine:

Why do my relationships, which start out with such obvious mutual attraction and passion, always end up in some weird separation dynamic?

Answer: pursuit of fertilization-driven sex (passion) leads to sexual addiction followed by increasing emotional distance.

To respond to your question, I have had clitoral, G-spot, G-spot massage, cervical and non-specific vaginal orgasm...and none of them have enabled me to escape the chill of separation during the two weeks following.

It took different forms. Sometimes it showed up as moodiness. Sometimes as projections of dissatisfaction with my partner. Sometimes as neediness. Sometimes as draining events in my life or financial screw ups (or screw jobs). Sometimes as an addictive hunger for more orgasm to the point where it was not even welcomed by a lover. Sometimes it didn't show up for 4-5 days.

But I never escaped it.

At the same time I was struggling to learn this truth by trial-and-error, I was also learning more and more about the potential of relationship as a spiritual path. Apparently, by overcoming the emotional friction and alienation that biology builds into our relationships (via our mating neurochemistry), male and female can genuinely move toward the deep feelings of wholeness that align us with the androgyny/oneness of our Source.

Wow! Imagine...a path that combined two of my favorite things: intimacy and spiritual growth. It felt deeply right to me. And if it meant that the search for the "better orgasm" fell to the side, my response was "so be it."

Just to clarify, we humans definitely ARE biologically designed for emotional separation and moving on to new lovers. See http://www.reuniting.info/science/coolidge_effect. So it makes sense to me that alienation between the sexes could indeed be the anchor that holds us at a low vibration here in matter.

So powerful is this mating program for addictive sexual passion...followed by separation...that both Tantra and Taoist lovemaking have probably degeneratied over the years. Certainly both traditions contain echoes of a more mutual practice geared toward enlightenment, which depended upon BOTH partners conserving their sexual energy. Although the full details of their origins are unknown, both have evolved into more lop-sided practices. In one case the tradition encouraged women's orgasm to help the man raise his sexual excitement. In another, to increase his longevity (in theory at least).

Anyway, this is a long way of saying I'm not sure that pursuit of a better orgasm brings us closer to the goals of spiritual enlightenment or even deeper union (my original goal). For this reason, I confess I'm only mildly interested in the recent discussions on this forum about female ejaculation and induced cervical orgasms. In my view, at best they are a passing phase in a longer journey, and at worst they have the potential to become major detours because of the addictiveness of orgasm.

Greetings Marnia - It seems

Greetings Marnia -

It seems we don't have enough knowledge of female ejaculation to make the conclusion definitively that it has the same alienating affects that conventional orgasm does. In my short experience, while it is a release, it does not have the same draining affect as orgasm. I think it would be wise to wait and see what other people's experience of this is before assuming that female ejaculation is the same as male's - and thereby rejecting it outright as being detrimental to intimacy. This said, I'm not secretly rooting for female ejaculation as being accepted within the paradigm of the value system of this website. It doesn't matter to me either way; it only matters that we base our conclusions off of observed or experienced effects. And I won't be surprised if we end up hearing from women over time that female ejaculation IS draining after all. If the chemical components of female ejaculate are similar to men's, it would make sense that the effects of releasing it would be similar. However, it's clear that since female ejaculate doesn't have the purpose of fertilization as sperm does, it's likely that a lot less energy goes into its production than for sperm, and therefore the resulting energy drain from its expenditure could be less. I feel that it would be wise to be open to exploring those aspects of sexuality that are little known or understood, at least in our culture. I recall years ago reading about a tribe in Africa (unfortunately I don't recall which) that had female ejaculation against a wall as part of an expected coming-of-age ritual. That's how differently cultural knowledge of and assumptions about sexual expression can affect our ability to express ourselves biologically.

What I sense in your mild interest (or disinterest) in the topic of female ejaculation is that it is only a biological function that occurs during sex - and that sex can be much deeper than any biological side-effects it may have. I completely agree with this, and also agree with the general value system of this entire website: which is that our discussions are based out of a desire to acknowledge the biology of sex and the cravings for physical closeness within the larger context of our awareness of relationship as a spiritual path which can lead to a bountiful harvest of nectar, delight, generosity, care, respect and mutual benefit in a way that simple biological peaks cannot compare to.

The mistrust I sense from you in these discussions of mere biological functions seems to come from a deeper awareness that when we focus on our ability to ejaculate or have orgasm, or on our ability to bring someone to that point, we are in essence focusing on our own sexual prowess rather than on union or on serving the other. Ie, we are inflating our egos by needing to feel so sexually accomplished. While we may be generous in giving our lover orgasms or bestowing pride on our lover by having them give us a lot of orgasms, if it is primarily for our own ego's sake, we haven't really been deepening our spiritual connection with our partner. But I don't necessarily believe that that means our enjoyment of giving pleasure or our enjoyment of releasing is necessarily linked to our self-grasping. It may or may not. I don't think the orgasm defines what's going on spiritually between two people; but I do see how addiction to orgasm can distract you from the greater potential of sex.

So let's deepen this discussion of what the spiritual path and potential in relationship (not just sex) is. The Buddhist traditions see self-grasping as the root of all suffering. We get addicted to things that give us a false and fleeting sense of self. But no amount of indulgence in what we feel props us up can really show us who we are, and the joy of our intrinsic emptiness.

Your website has illustrated very well why people are addicted to orgasm, and wisely counsels against that addiction to deepen our relationships. But there are numerous addictions to be had, all of which stem from the same delusions (ignorance of who we really are), and which are equally detrimental to our ability to connect to others and get beyond ourselves enough to care about others. I've become particularly aware of my own addictions recently, and they all give me a "hangover" because a huge amount of energy is expended on their behalf, with little or no real return: addiction to being perceived as beautiful, addiction to technology as a way to get information, share ideas, and be "in touch", addiction to judging others so that I may feel better about myself, addiction to "accomplishment," addiction to filling my head with thoughts so that it has something - anything - to do so that it does not have to confront the emptiness of reality.

So how far do we want to take this discussion? I'd like to hear from others what their mental and physical addictions are, how they've overcome them, how they affected their relationships, intimacy, and sexuality.

Peace to all

Thanks for your thoughts

What I seem to be learning about orgasm is that it is a neurochemical event, and so the content of the ejaculate may be entirely immaterial. There is where I think recent tantric and Taoist teaching about the importance of semen has gone off track.

As for other addictions, I think that balancing one's sexual energy can help with them all. (I watched my husband heal a long-term addiction to alcohol and chronic depression for which he was taking prescription meds, as a result of this practice.) The reason I believe this is that all addictions stem from a sense of lack, and loving union without the sensation of energy loss after orgasm, contributes subtly, but powerfully, to a sense of wholeness, or fulfillment - while preventing that a sense of lack. That helps with ALL addictions, across the board. This is why intimate relationships are perhaps the most efficient place for mankind to start relieving its endless addictions to substances and behaviors.

An AA meeting also uses loving, nonsexual relationships as the basis for miracles, of course. The point is that we have enormous potential in our relationships that we aren't tapping, because we rationalize continuing "business as usual."

May I ask if you do any kind of inner listening using an oracle? If so, could you simply ask whether the approach to lovemaking recommended at this site is right for you? Although my site has a lot of theory based on neurochemistry, the basic content is here because of the inner listening I did. The science is just another language to explain the wisdom of the fundamental concept. The conclusions weren't based on science; the science has simply been supporting them. The conclusions were "given," not just to me, but to many careful observers and listeners over thousands of years.

What do you get when you listen?

inner listening

Yes, Marnia, I do inner listening daily in my meditation practice. I'm surprised that you are asking whether I think that the approach to lovemaking proposed in the site is right for me, as I feel in all my discussions I have stated how valuable the viewpoints here are and how in line they are with what I see to be a more evolved way of making love. It is precisely because of this that I have felt drawn to participate in these discussions at all.

True, I have not read your book.

In any case, I appreciate the opportunity these forums provide for people to explore their myriad sexual experiences and insights. The ability of sex to heal other addictions and compulsions is one worth exploring more. I'd be happy to hear other stories of such transformations.

Peace.

Orgasmic Levels and Stages

It is interesting to hear the female view point and experience about the orgasms. What I have noticed is that female and male orgasms and processes resemble very much when both practice sacred sex. What happens to a man? Well, let's assume one has mastered his ejaculation impulse and makes inner sex. While doing so, some tension gathers in the testes and prostate. If one actively work out bodily, using bandhas (the three pumps), mentally, using concentration upwards, with the help of eyes and breathing, and spiritually, transferring the whole process on different stage, this pressure is being redirected via the inner channels to nourish the inner subtle energy body! Here I am not exactly sure about the scientific value of the following statement, but what I have noticed, is: After a while, if the energy is consciously driven inwardly, it happens something like inner ejaculation. The semen diminishes in the testicles and even physically is being spread and transformed into other fluids and hormones into the body.Sexual glands become endocrine glands! In my opinion, similar transformation, pushed by the previous viewed one, takes place in the brain as well. Transmitters probably have the same substantial base, initially produced by the same cells or bodily organs/neurons. And – such conclusion may claim not only releasing different mediator according our different way of experiencing life, situation, act, but even transforming and conversion one element, respectively brain transmitter, into another! Unfortunately, science still does not know much about this. That's why experiments have to be carried out – experiments hold by medics and psychologists together, in order to be studied the physical and the psychological processes and results in the domain of sacred (holotropic) loving!
As for the male orgasm – if the above mentioned sublimation process does not take place, even without ejaculation, the pressure from the prostate is released after a while through prostate orgasm. It is not ejaculation, but leaking of prostate fluids. It happens, in my experience – after 30min – 1 hour, depends of how intensively one makes love, how close to the orgasm stays and if one doesn't draws the energy upwards and his mind deeper within. Happens if the man remains on the level of the mere pleasure and persecutes more and more pleasure, without transforming it! It is completely natural, of course and definitely much better than the regular ejaculation!
Same is in regard to the women. Woman can have conventional orgasm, with or without outer fluid release. When she learns to exalts her orgasms, alike men, after a while she might release the tension through fluid release, without the actual orgasm.I think this fluid is combination between urine and some glands around the bladder. In my opinion it is not bad, of course, but if she consciously pulls the energy, gathered down toward her brain, circulates it in the channels, and transfers her mind in deeper state, it would not happen. And, even though the lost energy in this way is not much, such waste certainly happens during female ejaculation!!! Depends of the purposes: If you want mind exploring, you will have this ejaculation inwardly, into your bodily blood stream, as you have inward orgasms!
The Chinese say that orgasm can be different, according our mastery in the art of sublimation. It is regular orgasm, when the energy is experienced in its usual, sexual domain. If the energy and mentality during the intercourse is refined one level further, orgasm becomes non ejaculatory, inner, spreads through the whole body, deepens the perceptions and senses, refines feelings and stabilizes ones psychosomatic processes! And, if the journey goes on, orgasm becomes pure contemplation and leads to transcendent states of inner experiences, while eventually builds the immortal body of light – Nirmanakaia (according Tantra and Vadjrayana Buddhism), the body of Glory(Christianity), etheric immortal mind carrier (Theosophy), etc…

Be Healthy!!!

By the way, Orlin

Have you ever heard of the Cathars? I think they understood some of this Mystery, although they were also apparently missing some key bits (and got hung up in celibacy, it seems. Anyway, they apparently came to southern France from Bulgaria! They were so well-respected that their pure view of Christianity spread widely in the area, and ultimately had a huge effect on the Catholic Church indirectly. Unfortunately the Catholic Church persecuted them horribly soon after the end of the first millennia.

Interestingly, the "Sacrament of the Bridal Chamber" was also taught in France several centuries after the time of Jesus...according to the Church fathers who condemned them, too. And the wonderful webmaster for this site is French.

Here's an article about the Cathars that's on my site: http://www.reuniting.info/wisdom/courtly_love_chivalry_cortezia_cathars_...

More soon,
Marnia

Sublimation

You got it, Orlin.

"If the energy and mentality during the intercourse is refined one level further, orgasm becomes non ejaculatory, inner, spreads through the whole body, deepens the perceptions and senses, refines feelings and stabilizes ones psychosomatic processes!"

This is called the enlightened Bliss Body.

"And, if the journey goes on, orgasm becomes pure contemplation and leads to transcendent states of inner experiences, while eventually builds the immortal body of light – Nirmanakaia (according Tantra and Vadjrayana Buddhism), the body of Glory(Christianity), etheric immortal mind carrier (Theosophy), etc…"

You guessed it: enlightened Truth (light) Body.

I just got into this group, and it's the most productive one I've found.

welcome.

[quote=tomturpolene]
I just got into this group, and it's the most productive one I've found.
[/quote]

Welcome to Reuniting, tom. :)

The forums and the blogs have indeed been increasingly active. We welcome your contribution.

Blessings.

Delightful openness

Thank you Marnia and hotspring -- your honest, lively exchanges really makes this forum great to follow. Hoping for much more.
Having relatively recently come to experience the intense change in the way I perceive of my partner with deliberate non-orgasmic love, the most obvious observation is the sense of openendedness. Earlier there was a beginning (hmmm sex) and an end (orgasm -- completion), which is like opening and closing a door to sex closeness. Now instead of closing the door with that "been there, done that for a while" feeling, I'm "there" all the time with various degrees of energy and engagement. The door is never quite closed and it is a delightful, warming feeling.
My wife still wants her orgasms and we are open about what that means but for me, it does not feel like ego-bolstering when I can participate in them ... has felt more like mutual delight in them. She has also always been much more cuddle-oriented and we are not suffereing the obvious grave separation effects that Marnia has reported in some other cases. Yet I can see a subtle difference in my wife's caution re. sex for days after orgasms -- she will cuddle but comes to that line that I'm not passing since it would be uncomfortable for her. Would we both have that sense if she didn't orgasm either, I don't know. Not that we would want to make love all the time but there could be a recognition of the wish and a "I know ... later" smile. You tell me. We may find out some time in the future.
We are both suspicious of claimed "new age" cause and effect that cannot be clearly experienced which both of you have expressed too, so your longer personal experience Marnia has been invaluable as a benchmark. And hotspring please continue the reporting on the ejaculatory experience, which other women seem to report as partly energizing and maybe it doesn't slam the door shut in the same way as the other orgasms?

Less energy drop

I had a lover who's energy drop and distance after an orgasm alienated me. So I told her to look me in the eye during orgasm. That helped a great deal.

Even without an obvious hangover, explosive orgasms result in a shallower experience. I myself simply have little interest in such a purely "physical" experience after having experiencing spiritual bliss.

The "Is Chivalry Dead" article is excellent. It's just that it's so common to interpret the metaphorical imagery concretely. "You go to heaven after death." means, "You enter spiritual life after renunciation." or some such. The parables of Jesus are also examples of this.

Another question ;-)

I didn't try the Exchanges yet (no partner ;-( ) but I am convinced of their great value in promoting intimacy and bonding by preventing the dopamine ups and down increase in oxytocyn. They work at the neurochemical level.

Obviously I have a long path to thread once I get a partner, but I curious and ask my question: once that miracle happens, the couple has got the intimacy, a balanced neurochemistry, etc. how can we go to the next level - which I believe be at energetical - to experience total energetic "fusion" between the partners, their souls coming together as one so to say, experience of transcendent states by both partner during the controlled intercourse, etc.?

Bliss to all!