♥ Twenty two

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I'm finding voluntarily forgoing orgasm a tricky business. It seems a remarkably similar process to when I gave up smoking. My intentions were good, but I enjoyed cigarettes so much, stopping myself from having that enjoyment, for what were very laudable but not so immediately obvious benefits, was astonishingly difficult. I failed repeatedly. I particularly remember the first cigarette of the day, with my breakfast tea or coffee, which was so serenely delicious, I usually lit a second from the tab of the first, to prolong the pleasure. Giving this up felt barbarous.

Countless times, I would throw away half full packets of cigarettes, only to find myself queuing up to buy another the following day. Obviously, I was addicted, so the craving was a very real phenomenon; but what made it harder was the sheer, unadulterated pleasure I got from inhaling tobacco smoke, and handling the slim, white tubes, particularly after a meal or with a drink. Like many of life's pleasures, a clear mandate to desist wasn't enough. Incontrovertible proof that I would be beter off as a non smoker was insufficient to motivate me. I needed to derive more, or a different, 'better' pleasure from not smoking than I did from continuing.

I think this was the key difficulty. I felt no better after periods of non smoking than I did while indulging. In fact, I felt worse. I accepted most of the benefits would be long term but I wanted more immediate feedback. I wanted to finish a meal, sit back, not have a cigarette, and feel better for it, rather than hankering after one from morning till night.

It took me years to properly quit. Even after a decade of non smoking I still experienced the powerful desire for a cigarette during social occasions. Occasionally, I indulged, and was usually revolted. This desire for something that was no longer delicious but now disgusted me persisted well beyond what seemed credible. In many ways, I'm still a smoker now, even though it's more than thirty years since I stopped.

I find a similar pattern with orgasm. From a safe distance, I seem very motivated to stop. I'm familiar with Karezza, I enjoy it, I've educated myself about it's benefits, and I've agreed with my lizard brain that a trial period of a couple of months is not a lifetime commitment. If it turns into one, that's fine; but knowing from the outset I am not giving up orgasm for good ought, I thought, to have made it relatively easy to give it up temporarily.

It may be wondered why I keep saying 'I' rather than 'we'. The truth is, my wife is happy either way. She's not motivated in the sense that I am, but this isn't surprising, as she hasn't really educated herself about the possible benefits. So, although it's a shared venture, I've organised the trip, and unfortunately, I'm the main map reader.

I'm trying to discover where the problem lies. It seems it has to do with my unwillingness, in the face of temptation, to stick to a decision I've previously made. In this, it's not unlike any addiction. I gave up smoking, I hardly drink, I haven't indulged in drugs since my youth, I'm not a binge eater, so I don't have many things I crave but would be better without. I do have a minor chocolate problem, but if the chips were down, I could drop that tomorrow. I find it difficult to accept my orgasm craving is on a par with more traditional desires, but maybe it is. It's certainly been with me a long time.

I detailed my solo sexual history in a much earlier post. I was around when copies of Playboy were something special. I don't find the porn of today very enticing. For me, there's something missing when pubic hair isn't there - not that Playboy ever showed much of it. Anyway, porn, masturbation, fantasies, etc, aren't an issue here. I don't really have a problem with desire or arousal. My problem is more one of containment. A decision - to avoid orgasm - that seems so logical and easy when we begin making love, for some reason keeps coming up for internal 'review' during that lovemaking. Unless I'm very careful, I find myself repeatedly sifting through all available evidence in an attempt to belittlle my current experience, however enchanting it might be, invalidating the insights and actions that led to it, in the hope that my original decision might be overturned. It's disheartening to be pitted against myself in this way, as although I always win, I always lose, too!

The first of these reappraisals usually takes place shortly after the outset, when we're barely warmed up. I have no difficulty reasserting my commitment at that point. In fact, I'm often to be found patting myself on the back, saying something along the lines of, "This is delightful; what a breeze; why don't we do this every day; why ever should I want to ramp things up?"

We continue, and the next review occurs when I find either my attention wandering or my ardour diminishing. I generally respond to this by heating things up a little. I do this because to not do it would seem to render the entire event pointless. I could simply let my erection subside, and lie there in a pleasing enough embrace, but somehow that wouldn't suffice. At this juncture, my intention remains intact, but I've made the decision to move the excitement level up a notch, towards the danger zone.

Similar reviews take place at recurring intervals. The critical one is usually accompanied by a wider 'scan', taking in a perceived threat to my prowess as a lover, the incipient surge of passion that is always hovering in the wings no matter what we do, a dose of realism in the form of a reminder that orgasm is an eminently normal occurrence, a snapshot warning that a healthy prostrate needs release, a derisory snort at the quaint notion of continence, and a kind of devil may care attitude that might be refreshing at other times but is a bit of a pain when it's not wanted. At that point, a balance becomes tipped, and suddenly I find myself on the other side of a leaking dam. The dam hasn't burst yet, there's still plenty of time to plug the leak - I may even half heartedly try doing this - but the trickle soon becomes a torrent, I begin surfing it, my wife eagerly joins in and before we know it we're on a familiar course again, with a bleating voice crying out that this wasn't what was supposed to happen fading into the distance.

Since my last post, when I described what we have always considered the acme of orgasmic lovemaking - CAT - the unconscious temptation to give this another go probably meant Karezza had little chance. We had hardly started when we found ourselves in a familiar position going through the familiar grinding motions. It worked well, which of course made it harder still to not try again the following day, which wasn't so successful. A standoff followed that, and I blotted my copybook by indulging in some frenzied grappling that was about as far removed from Karezza as could be imagined.

So, we're back to square one, but we're still good friends, and regardless of how all our best intentions have been shot down, my wife still seems like the same glorious incarnation of sexiness and desirability and sagacity she always has. We may argue like hell occasionally, but I'm beginning to wonder if that isn't our destiny.

I have to remember to keep this in context. I"m not agonising over my inability to quit visiting prostitutes, the impossibility of giving up my mistress, or an overriding compulsion to view porn, masturbate in secret, fantasise about my neighbour or slaver over an inflatable doll catalogue. Looked at from most angles, my struggle is the absurd one of how to avoid becoming so passionate during lovemaking with my wife that orgasm for both of us becomes inevitable. If I told my friends I considered this a failure, they would think I was bonkers.

But when I read some of the posts here from those couples who have successfully made Karezza their own, I think I would be much more bonkers if I was not to keep plugging away in the hope that one day the lizard in me will take a well earned rest, for at least long enough to allow my eyes to be more than just partially opened.

I ordered the Richardson's "Men' and 'Women' books. Maybe one will help motivate me sufficiently, the other intrigue my wife, and both steel our resolve, so future, mid Karezza 'reviews' of decisions already made will be less likely to result in overturned judgements.

P.S. For anyone who's seen Groundhog Day, I believe I might be living it. I just looked back at one or two of my first blog entries, dated 2007, and found I was doing and saying much the same thing then. Still, as I mentioned, it did take me a long time to quit smoking ...


Thanks for sharing

My husband and I also gave up on Karezza the first times we tried it... because we also weren't sufficiently motivated to keep it up. We were newly-weds, we were madly in love and never argued, and he had already kicked his mild porn habit. But now that we decided to give it another chance and really stick with it for as long as possible, we are seeing benefits we didn't know we COULD get from Karezza. I may not have had a noticeable hangover from orgasms before, but abstaining has showed me just how strong my cravings for them really are, and how that contributes to overall imbalance in my life. I was never a smoker but I did have a terrible sugar addiction as a teen, and the relief of being free of those cravings is worth all the work I went through to get here, even though at the time there was no noticeable benefit to skipping dessert.

-Mrs. Tornfromabook


I'm in awe of how savvy you seem to be at an age and in circumstances that I chiefly remember as a time of unthinking coupling, rampant horniness and almost intolerable sexual tension! Karezza would have been a particular blessing during pregnancy and afterwards because of its gentle nature. My wife would have loved it; but I doubt I would have given it a chance, given my relative immaturity. Mind you, I still seem to be immature ...

Your posts

are marvelous. As far as your genes are concerned, your thinking is sound. Fertilization *is* different than other indulgences. It's why you're here.

I don't know if you'll ever change unless you have an obvious motivation that your brain can deem more important.

In my case, the mood changes I saw in my lovers was motivation enough. Then I figured out that the Eastern sages were wrong (actually some also saw what I eventually saw, but I didn't find them until later), and that some women (myself included) suffered perception shifts and mood changes during the recovery period after orgasm.

Now, I was more motivated. Add to that the fact that I was intrigued by some texts that explained the importance of "whole-mindedness" as a way to align with the Divine, and I was *really* motivated.

Without some larger motivation, I doubt you will change. And as you point out, your circumstances are actually quite pleasant by most accounts. Enjoy!

Never say never

Although I may appear as stuck as I ever was, my thinking is changing, slowly. I had a major insight recently, that could radically change my outlook, given time. I'll post about it one day.


I just think you're experiencing the gravitational forces of conventional sex because you're still orbiting orgasm at a fairly close proximity. Once you get further out, the pull will naturally diminish. Sounds like the rocket boosters of will are consuming a lot of your energy at this stage.

When I read your post, I know exactly what you mean from experience, but that memory is a very distant one. There isn't a bone in my body, (or a boner either for that matter) that has even the slightest draw towards conventional orgasm/stimulation sex. And I don't say this from some "right" or "this is better" perspective. Karezza sex is simply way, way, way more pleasurable. For me there's no morality behind the choice to forgo orgasm; it's just plain delicious.

From someone who's made it out of orbit, I can tell you that if you stay the course and break out of the those gravitational forces, I believe you will find the entire experience very sweet and almost effortless. You'll look back and go, "what was it I thought was so great about having orgasms?"

It's obviously different for different folks but I think it takes anywhere from 6 months to a year to really get in the karezza groove.

Just so you know, there's a wide variety of experience under the non-orgasmic umbrella and personally I'm not one for soft penis play. Hell, my wife wants no part of that. It's full hardness for her all the way. We even get a little close to the edge sometimes but there's still no draw to orgasm and the motion is almost always deliciously slow.

What happens if you do

What happens if you do orgasm? Does any draw return? Any chaser calling at all?

Given the mind's tendency to go where one says not to, how do you balance conscious awareness of the edge without getting drawn toward it?

No draw returns at all, at

No draw returns at all, at least not for me. I'm no scientist but I gather the nuropathways are rewired and going back to being pulled towards orgasm would take time, and probably effort. I'm definitely not interested in experimenting to find out.

I think the minds tendency to go anywhere is in the idea that there might be some pleasure there. If someone says the stove is hot, don't touch it, I don't have any pull to do it because of a "don't or should not" When you reach the point where orgasm doesn't hold any appeal you wont want to go there.

Not so sure with sex as

Not so sure with sex as we're wired to reproduce. It might vary with age once one gets to the point where the drive for reproduction diminishes and orgasm or not becomes neutral to the entire system.


I find your posts, and your description of how Karezza evolved for you, very helpful. I'm sure you're right - to reap the benefits I need to stick at it. When you - and others - talk about the greatly enhanced pleasure you get from non orgasmic lovemaking, and all the attendant benefits that accrue, I have to take it on trust; but that's not hard, given your obvious sincerity. Your strength of conviction, and the shining honesty that glows in the posts of those who are following a similar path, is inspiring. I've come to realise any conversion I undergo will depend on maintaining motivation. I get a lot of that from visiting this site, though whether I stay the course remains to be seen. I particularly like the image of the gravitational pull. I believe I had a sense of the strength of that waning, and another, contrary 'pull' taking over, during our recent spell of Karezza lovemaking. It was like a taste that I didn't fully appreciate until it had become a memory. 


I always learned the most about karezza whenever I abandoned it, whether intentionally or inadvertently. I just seem to learn the hard way. Wink

Looks like you've got to

Looks like you've got to start being more conscious right at the time of the loss of the erection. Give him permission to take a break at the confusing junction.

If your wife's breasts have been properly honored and she is receptive you should be able to hold an erection from her force field alone.

What I have been learning is that the pathway/channels/containers for energy vectors are connected to anatomy often but they can also take off at a certain point without anatomy/friction. The whole being has become so spacious in its ability to hold ecstacy and love that there is room for love/consciousness to do its own thing, have the space to become present, rejuvenating all of the organs. I had the first experience ever, with the receptive channel open, of feeling very low arousal and then "receiving" an energetic orgasm as my partner came into me which had no other physiological expression other than a sweet long ripple through my body and soul - a seamless stream coursing through the open relaxation that I was. This was an energetic reception of an electromagnetic imprint from him that was an orgasm but without clenching or contraction, because my whole being was splayed open. The energy moved out as subtly as it had come in with no congestion at all, just sheer delight. This is a different level of awareness.

It feels like a resting spot that opens up a flow borne of receptivity and relaxation in the woman that is spiritual/emotional. In this state she will absolutely accept and love your penis whether soft or hard, because Ultimately, The Pussy Just Fundamentally Loves the Quality of Your Presence Embodied in Your Penis As You Nuzzle Up Into Her. If you are undistracted in your presence she will be able to fully receive you. She is far kinder than she may even know. She has probably rarely been given the opportunity to love you in your soft state within her. Give yourself permission to be completely accepted and loved by her. No more avoiding this through orgasm, You are Not After All a Lizard.

Soft or hard

I may not be my lizard, but my lizard certainly thinks I am.

Since I can remember, only three things have enabled me to have an erection: something I've seen, something I've thought of, or something I've done. During Karezza, I'm not looking, at least not lasciviously, and I'm not thinking much, so all that's left is whatever I'm doing. Of course, there's also 'sensing', but this hasn't resulted in arousal for me, in the past, so much as acted as a means to check arousal is taking place. I find sensing what is going on more difficult the less there is happening. If nothing much is evident, in terms of physical arousal, all I can find to pay attention to is the sense of something lacking.

I'm beginning to appreciate that sensing more of what is going on, beyond the obvious, is what I need practice at. The problem is, for me, sex without an erection has always seemed faintly absurd. I'm not saying it's an unpleasant experience to lie with limbs entangled and a warm, fuzzy glow spreading outwards from genitals that are connected, but it has an air of about it that makes it closer to a loving embrace than a sexual encounter. So, sensing the loving embrace, but wishing it was more overtly sexual, leaves me disgruntled enough to want to change it.

You're right: it is that moment when I become aware of a fading erection and react to the annoyance this provokes by ramping the action up a little that marks the beginning of the end. Cultivating the patience to stay still at that moment is going to take a lot of practice. I've only read one of Diane Richardson's books so far, Slow Sex, and although she refers to the breasts being absolutely central, she isn't specific about how to go about honouring them. I am in awe of my wife's breasts, and I like nothing better than to nuzzle up to them; but I haven't a clue how to approach them other than as a means to excite us both on our merry way to orgasm. Learning about that should be something to look forward to.

I've always felt my wife and I got together because I needed a teacher and for some obscure reason she needed someone to teach. When we first met, she talked a lot about 'fluid' emanating from our bodies while making love. Her English was poor at that time and I blithely ignored her obvious meaning. The only fluid I was interested in were genital secretions. What she meant, of course, was 'energy', flowing through and between us. She often takes my hand and places it on her breast and says 'Don't do anything!' Unfortunately, I remain oblivious to this secret flow that seems to energise her.


I predict, if you continue practicing non-orgasmic love making you will look back on your desire for conventional sex, (in lets say a year), and say, "wow, and I used to think having orgasm sex was what I wanted. Man, I had no idea how much sweeter and more fulfilling karezza lovemaking is". In other words, just buck up and stick with it, in time all the goodies, (which I'm sure you're at least tasting now), will become the core of your experience. Wanting orgasm will fade to a memory of something you no longer have any interest in. From someone on the other side; you will get there as long as you stick with it. I have been where you are, it will pass.

About the hard and soft. Like I said, there's a wide definition of non-orgasmic lovemaking under the karezza umbrella. If you prefer a full erection in your lovemaking then go for it. That's what my wife and I like. No karezza police have come knocking on our bedroom door.

With this said, I think there is another way to get there. From doing this for a while I have come to observe that I, as a male, am built to "send" an the woman is built to "receive". What I have experience through karezza is a refinement of this. Within the "receiving" energy is a "calling" energy. My lover calls to me with her body, her vagina, her being. When I hear this I cannot resist. The "calling" beckons to the "sending". When the calling is clearly heard erections will happen. The "noise" of strong friction sex can drown out the quieter, but quite powerful "calling" energy. Once there is more space the sweet music of feminine reception/calling will become louder and can be quite intoxicating. Sometimes my wife's mere presence when she walks in the room will make me hard, and she likes that.

This is where the breasts can come in to play. You can begin the "calling" energy by gently and softly caressing your lovely wife's breasts. Its not about the nipples, like you're trying to tune in a radio station or start the car, but the whole breast, like a sweet loving soft massage. I'm sure if you tune in you'll feel what she loves. I think Diana Richardson explains it very clearly, I would read her explanation. I found "Slow Sex" one of her weaker books. I would get either or both "Tantric Sex for Men", my favorite, or "Tantric Orgasm for Women". These two cover it all very well.

Ah, the sweet wisdom of the feminine. I love what the wise woman has to teach. I think all us guys can be a bit dense sometimes. Thank god for their patience.


Okay, I think I've got the message.

I'm to forget everything else for the time being, give my full, undivided attention to my wife's breasts, and listen to her calling.

It sounds blissful.

You are figuring it out

Sood, it sounds like you are starting to figure out the reason behind why conventional sex keeps drawing you back (and what you need to do to change in order to enjoy karezza).

I wrote a little bit (it's short) about spontaneous erections a while back:


And breasts truly are the key to a woman's arousal and enjoyment once *she* learns to let go, relax and focus (it's not going to be something *you* do in particular that makes it that way for her). Once that happens, she can guide you as to what she wants (or she can do it herself).


Technical question

Are some heart motifs better than others?

For this thread, 'Twenty two', I cut and pasted a heart from somewhere on the Reuniting site. For thread 'Twenty one', I found it online. For thread 'Twenty', I think Marnia must have added it. 'Twenty' and 'Twenty one' both found their way into the Karezza threads; but 'Twenty two' didn't and only ever shows up under 'all recent posts'.

Alt + 3

Thanks - I'll try to remember next time.

By the way, Alt+3 does nothing on my laptop. I checked online and it seems I need to have NUMLOCK on, which apparently iinvolves a bit more than simply pressing a key. I think I'll stick to cutting and pasting.

How about simplifying this

How about simplifying this by making it more complex? Create a second category or if need be more than one more that place those threads into the karezza threads. Perhaps something that begins with text such as "heart ♥" or "karezza ♥" . That way a person can type text and have the ♥ options pop up.

Another idea is to make the ♥ option the first option no matter what one types. That way it is always there, reminds people to consider it, and doesn't require they know how to make the ♥s.

Already on my list

We're thinking of making the options mandatory and very broad so there won't be too many. But this will be part of the makeover, so don't expect to see these changes very soon.