♥Incorporating Karezza - progress report

Submitted by Sid on
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I figured it was time to post a blog entry about my ongoing efforts to introduce karezza lovemaking to my marriage where my wife has zero interest in sexual activity of any kind.

I am at the end of my second month of a three month effort to introduce karezza into our marriage. The objective thus far has been to not make any demands for sexual intimacy but instead engage in boding behaviors without conveying an intention that I wanted it to go to something else. The something else has traditionally been “orgasm.” My theory, based on reading Diane Richardson’s work, is that the drive for orgasmic sex and the roller coaster of emotions and chemicals that follow that ride have led us to our present difficulties.

Over the past two months we have engaged in lots of affectionate touch, hand holding and cuddling, all of it non-sexual. A couple of weeks ago we were on vacation and it was particularly hard for me. I wanted to make love to her so badly and I told her so, but got a “no” in response so just continued holding her and giving affectionate touch.

Yesterday I had a conversation with Nancy about Diane Richardson’s book, The Heart of Tantric Sex, and my desire to have karezza sex with her. I told her that I have been reading this beautifully written book about tantric sex and thought that it was something that would be really good for us. I explained that it described a new way of making love that was “effortless.” Her stock response surfaced that she is too taxed raising our four kids, never has any energy and can’t find time in a day to get done what she needs to get done, let alone make time for sexual intimacy. I acknowledged all of this and did not get defensive. I just offered that the book seemed to imply that using karezza could help alleviate daily stress, might even alleviate some of her constant complaints of aches, pains and fatigue and further improve our intimacy, which has noticeably improved for both of us over the last two months. Her response was “How is getting less sleep going to make me less tired?” I said I didn’t know, but we could always try it and see.

I suggested that we try to make a “date” to try some karezza love making. She seemed somewhat receptive to the idea, but said she wasn’t sure when she could make the time and also was concerned that unless we had a pre-arranged agreement to only do it for a limited amount of time, it might go on for hours thus depriving her of needed sleep. She expressed some interest in possibly trying it in about a month when we go away for a few days to celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary.

I have been stressing a bit lately about having this conversation. I’m really proud of myself for not going about it in an “I’m entitled, I’m offended” way, but simply matter of fact, without stress, pressure or expectation.

I’ve been giving a lot of thought lately to just bailing on this marriage. I keep reminding myself that I’ve decided to defer that decision for now, (at least until October) Right now, I’m just focusing on seeing if it is possible to repair the past damage in our relationship. I also keep reminding myself that “starting over” won’t be any easier than this is. My frustration just comes from my feelings of powerlessness, but I'm doing something positive and that helps a lot.

I left the Richardson book on her side of the bed. I doubt she will pick it up, but maybe she will. I had a hard time deciding which book to buy. I originally though of “Tantric Orgasm for Women” but was afraid the title would be offputting to Nancy, like this was somehow “her” problem and I was trying to fix her. I’m glad I got “The Heart” it is a well written book with a lot of suggestions. I’m excited about exploring this with Nancy, but Nancy has got to get interested in this too, or nothing is going to happen.

-Sid

Today I know that I cannot control the ocean tides. I can only go with the flow. When I struggle and try to organize the Atlantic to my specifications, I sink. If I flail and thrash and growl and grumble, I go under. But, if I let go and float, I am borne aloft.
-Marie Stilkind

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Comments

You're right

that karezza is likely to improve her sleep and energy levels. Logical or not, it happens. Don't argue with her, but don't doubt your correctness on this point.

What about starting with "scissors" position and letting her nod off if she likes? I think if her subconscious "gets it" that sex doesn't have to be draining, she might be more open to the next step...actually staying awake for the performance. Wink

I know such an approach isn't matching your image of "great sex," but there's something to just getting the exchange of energy started in a way that doesn't raise her subconscious defenses. She obviously loves you. She's just fighting a subconscious aversion that built up through no one's fault. Tiptoe past it by making sex completely effortless at first.

You could use "soft entry" if necessary. And lots of lube. Are you familiar with "scissors" and "bridge" positions?

Yes!

To what Marnia said!

I'm wondering what would happen if you asked her if you two could just "plug in" as you go to sleep~~my lover and I have done it in the spoon position where we were on our sides and he cupped his hand over my breast and we fell asleep this way. It's so relaxing! (you could use lube so there is no fancy foreplay needed; in fact, she would probably be relieved at this point that it would require virtually nothing of her except to lie still)

She might experience some "stirrings" after doing this one or two times! You would have to promise yourself if she agrees that you *don't* thrust or move around and also, that you allow her to fall asleep in this position.

A man's still penis within the vagina is very, very erotic, (erect or not) ...

Good luck!!!!

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Sleep anchor

I don't know how old your kids are or what your work schedule is but if it's humanly possible for you to do so, I recommend fixing your 'date' for anytime except when you would normally go to bed to sleep, and any place except your bedroom. My wife and I have been making 'dates' for ages now and although I still prefer the evening, in our own bed, it's only lately I've realised that being there, then, is often too a powerful a sleep anchor for my wife to resist. This has caused some grief for both of us in the past when I've been anticipating a long night of eroticism, only to find my wife, despite her best intentions, craving the oblivion of sleep. It's quite different at other times of the day, in other locations, which, most of the time, we are able to manage.

For starters:

The shower, the tub, the countertop (bathroom or kitchen), the spare bed, the couch, the deck, the roof, the attic, the car, the hayloft...

Sood and Jesse

I agree with you all, but right now, Sid is just trying to break through the barrier and open her up to feeling him again~~and anything that will make it seem like real sex is going to happen might make her defensive.

To me, it makes sense to start the process in a way where she has the least amount of worry over the children, etc.~~make it as easy as possible! And if she goes to sleep while he is inside her, it doesn't matter. Once she has started to come back to him and wants him, *then* they can make dates and times and special places for being together.

Too much, too soon can work against a man in this situation~

Smile

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Ditto

During a very stressed out and sex-averse period, I am pretty sure I could've been convinced by a boyfriend to do falling-asleep-karezza but not to introduce new time-consuming rituals that might compete with sleep. I say try the sleep idea now and get to the "hotel" idea later.

imnotcoming.wordpress.com
imnotcoming.tumblr.com [contains sensual imagery]

Hotel date

Just so there's no confusion, by "anywhere but your bedroom", I meant a convenient sofa, spare bed, garden cabin, hammock, or handy piece of floor, rather than somewhere outside the home environment; and by “date” I meant a mutually convenient time rather than going somewhere special together.

Having said that, I'm inclined to agree with Rachel that my suggestion might have been premature for Sid in his current situation. To be honest, having read his blog, I'm a bit confused. He and Nancy appear to have been through a successful Karezza period already, last year … so it's not unknown territory.

I'm not sure about sleep being a device for avoiding sex, at least with us. If it was, my wife would arrange all our 'dates' for the evening, in our bed. It's me that does that – which begs the question, why, since I'm the one that gets bothered when she drops off to sleep. She, on the other hand, always chooses other locations, and other times of day, when sleep is next to impossible, and has never yet happened. If she had her choice, we would never make love in our bed!

I think the time factor is one of the biggest problems we've encountered so far in our Karezza experimentations. Most of the literature emphasises how unusually long a session is likely to be, compared to conventional sex - many hours, even a day, is considered normal. For this to be possible, the time has to be available. If it is available, but doesn't get used, it can seem something of a letdown.

Anyway, I'm not really in a position to advise anyone what's best. I only chimed in because I strongly believe the marriage bed is sleep inducing for very sound reasons – it's where we sleep! Thinking back to our early years, sex seemed to happen everywhere other than bed, and at all times of the day except the evening.

A false start.

We started karezza a while back, but it didn't take hold.
I was still too orgasm driven and kept escalating.
Nancy's response was to retreat and we ended up in a rut.

Time and place

I *highly* recommend 30-minute karezza quickies first thing in the morning while you're still all warm and cozy under the covers~~you will have a spring in your step all day! Smile

(it doesn't always have to be a lengthy session to be good for your soul!)

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

I would recommend two things

First, get "Slow Sex" - I just started re-reading it this week, and the first few chapters are really about relaxing, which anyone as tired and overworked and your beloved, *needs* badly. I wish this book came as an audio book. It would be lovely to listen to together.

Second, I recommend just 15 minutes of karezza-like snuggling meditation in the morning. It's best naked, but even if you don't sleep naked, I still think it will work. My partner and I do this every day - sometimes as a precursor to PIV Karezza, but most of the time, we do this by itself.

What we do once we're barely or mostly awake is lie facing one another - my arm is between us, and I position myself such that I can place my left (non-dominant) hand between us, and my partner's genitals 'lay' in my hand. I don't grip, or stroke, do anything but gently support him. I just give his genitals a place to connect with me. (It doesn't matter if he's hard or soft or anything - it's just not a part of this.) My head /neck lays across his out stretched right arm. I then either put my right leg over his hip, or he puts his left leg over my hip. (I prefer my leg over his hip, as this 'opens' my pelvis.) . Then we put our free arms around each other and pull as close as we can - my breasts press against his chest, and he's taller than I am, so my face is nuzzled in his neck. And we just breathe, and relax, and clear our minds of nothing but the love and thankfulness we feel for one another.

I think two things are important in this - at least I find it is for us - I have to use my non-dominant hand for this - otherwise, it seems to want to return to the old "stroking" stimulating movements, instead of just holding/supporting him. And we don't talk or wiggle around. We just relax and feel the love for one another inside us - it's like another other mindfulness meditation. When it's time to separate, we kiss for a bit, and then get ourselves out of bed for the day.

Even when we only have 5 or 6 minutes because we woke up late, we still do this. Everyday. We find it easier than soft entry which takes more time, and practice. And it has worked really well for us. I love starting our day this way.

Quizure

{{sigh}}

So good.

This is similar to how we sometimes go to sleep, too (my hand cupping his genitals with my head nuzzled on his chest and his hand on my breast) -- well, until he gets hot and throws me over to my side of the bed, lol.

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

October is my favorite month.

I've always liked October. My birthday is in Oct. (I'll be 46 this year).
I also started my recovery in Oct of 2007.
It's traditionally been a good month for me.

I needed a future date and Oct seemed like a fair amount of time in the future to defer any major decisions.

I'm not expecting life to be wonderful by then, but it's when I plan to re-assess and take a hard look at things. If no real progress has been made by that time, then I think I will be able to say in good conscious that I gave it my best shot to try to effect change and it just didn't work out. On the other hand, I am feeling optimistic that things will work out. Nancy really does love me (as Marnia pointed out) and I really love her. It's just that, well, things got a bit screwed up, I guess. Funny how crap happens in life.

I appreciate all the responses and encouragement from this site. It's an awesome support network.

-Sid

Everything in life that we really accept undergoes a change.
So suffering must become love. That is the mystery.
-Katherine Mansfield

Dear Sid, You say, "my wife

Dear Sid,

You say, "my wife has zero interest in sexual activity of any kind".

If that is the case, she is not sexually attracted to you. If she were sexually attracted to you she would want to have sex, period. More cuddly bonding, in my opinion, will not solve the problem. Neither will educating her about tantric sex or karezza. You need to become more sexually attractive - fix the things you are doing which flip her OFF switches and figure out the things you can do to flip her ON switches so that the sum of the ON's outnumber the OFF's.

Over the last year you have been doing lots of cuddling and bonding behaviors, intimacy and connection has increased but not sexual attraction (on her side). This result is not surprising since the function of bonding behaviors is to increase intimacy and connection, NOT sexual attraction, although they may often coincide (please comment Marnia).

I don't know the specifics of your relationship but reading some of the material at www.marriedmansexlife.com may be helpful. His blog is very much focused on how to get as much orgasmic sex as possible so it may not go down well here but I think he has got a lot right.

Here are the posts which I have found helpful:
'sex rank' http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/01/basics-part-4-sex-rank.html
'what is sexy' http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/01/basics-5-what-is-sexy-is.html
'destabilizing your relationship for fun and pussy' http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/02/destablizing-your-relationship-...
'dominance and submission in marriage' http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/2010/03/dominace-and-submission-in-marr...

In regards to her being stressed with caring for your children etc. how is your daily life structured? Do you both have 9-5 working hours? How are the household chores managed?

Friendly Regards,
parky

Me, too~

And there was nothing he could have *done* (chores, cooking dinner, etc.) that would have changed me.

It makes me feel bad to see articles written where the advice for men is to "do more around the house" (although yes, sometimes they need to, just 'cuz!) in order to get more sex.

Housework does not equal sex.

A woman's body gets closed off through conventional sex (Parky, have you read any of the Richardson books--they explain it *so* well). Over time, we lose interest because it does nothing for us spiritually and emotionally. Karezza is a godsend for women.

I really believe if Sid's wife can get just a taste of karezza, she will start to warm up to him sexually. But, and this is a huge but, she has to understand what she's doing, what it's all about, how to change her thought processes, etc. It's not something Sid can do one-sided, it just doesn't work that way. If she's not open to it (learning about it, discussing it), then yes, I would think the relationship may not ever be sexual (but it's nothing Sid has done or can do to change it!).

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Hi Rachel, I'm not

Hi Rachel,

I'm not suggesting that Sid do more chores around the house, but the stress of housework and caring for children is obviously a factor for his wife and so the problem should be considered.

I have read Richardson's 'Tantric Sex'. I am very wary of statements like "a woman's body gets closed off through conventional sex" because they give the impression that 'this is the way it happens all the time'. It doesn't happen like that ALL the time, there are always exceptions (just as imnotcoming's reply proved about my views on sexual attraction).

Saying something along the lines of "just get her to do karezza and everything will be alright" seems too simplistic to me. If Sid has been using bonding behaviours with a level of success but can't seem to progress any further then thinking about the problem from another angle may be helpful, which is why I referenced marriedmansexlife.com.

Parky

Parky

Yes, there are always exceptions! And I am probably way too optimistic about how wonderful karezza is and how it affects every single area of your life~~but my own experience has been nothing short of a miracle. It's hard for me not to want others to see how being in a soul-satisfying sexual relationship can make *everything* in life so much easier (including the mundane parts).

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Btw

I really like that last article on dominance and submission. I think he gets it right, at least with me and my gal pals. I have totally witnessed and participated in that "deadlock of mutual submission" thing he describes.

Edit: I want to add this, too. I think that when a man is dominant (I usually use the word "self-possessed" to avoid unwanted connotations), it actually gives me the impression that he's reading my mind. I love it when a guy calls me on my bullshit. Honest to goodness, when we women are testing you, we don't usually realize that we are testing you. We just feel compelled to pipe up about something, and your reaction leaves us feeling satisfied or dissatisfied. The author says:

"The Body Agenda literally thinks 'if he can’t handle me, he can’t actually protect me from anything.' Often a woman will tear her husband apart over quite minor things seeking a reaction to correct her. If she doesn’t get that correction she can become increasingly agitated with her man and progressively more extreme in efforts to force that reaction. The majority of drama queens are just seeking the king to finally show up and tell her to knock it off."

("The Body Agenda" seems to be equivalent to the mammalian brain.)

imnotcoming.wordpress.com
imnotcoming.tumblr.com [contains sensual imagery]

I don't think I agree~

When a woman tears her husband (or anyone) apart, I think it comes from within, an emotion that hasn't been recognized or dealt with~~I don't think anyone *outside* of us can cause anything~~the reason I say that is because once you become balanced in your emotions, a person can say the same thing that might have caused an explosive argument in the early days, but it does not affect you in your new balanced state.

I feel we all have an inner journey to take and our biology is only minimally responsible for how we handle ourselves in life (just my opinion, of course!).

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

I hear you

I'm *already* feeling less high-maintenance during my meet-ups with Actor Guy. I haven't been difficult the way I usually am. People talk about "playing hard to get," but I never played it like a strategy. It came from inside - I *was* hard to get. But this time around is feeling much different, much more straightforward.

imnotcoming.wordpress.com
imnotcoming.tumblr.com [contains sensual imagery]

So good

I think the kindest thing we can do for those around us is learn about ourselves and what triggers us, what baggage we carry, what emotions set us off.

Sometimes it takes a really long time to figure out what *your* role was in causing a relationship to break off (I just figured one out that happened over 30 years ago, lol~~mine was more of a karmic thing, but still caused by me), but when you do accept your own responsibility, it is very freeing! You learn and you grow and you (hopefully) won't make the same mistakes again!

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

"If she were sexually

"If she were sexually attracted to you she would want to have sex, period."

Oh I don't think that's true at all. What about all the victims of sexual abuse (1/4 of all women)? What about women who were raised to be ashamed of their sexuality? What about my sister, who's in a long term relationship with a guy she is very attracted to, but is still a virgin because she is afraid to be so vulnerable with a person she argues with so frequently? Men and women are capable of growing emotionally distant and ceasing sex while still being attracted to the other person. There are plenty of people that I find attractive but would not want to sleep with, either because I don't know them or because I know them too well. As most of the people who hang out on this website have discovered... feeling close to someone is a big motivator for sex, and if the relationship is developed, it is a much stronger motivator than the ones we get from our biological and cultural programming that tells as what makes people desirable.

A passage from TOfW

Diana Richardson describes what has happened to me (too many times!) in my life with conventional sex:

"In the absence of a woman's cooperation in sex, the divinity of the sex act is near impossible to encounter....When a man repeatedly enters a woman's body before she is really prepared for penetration, the woman will feel turned off to sex (my note: oral sex does not prepare a woman for sex). A certain repulsion may even begin to set in. In time, many a woman will close down physically, eventually turning away from sex if possible. When unable to avoid it, she becomes a master at submitting, enduring the minutes prior to ejaculation. Once she becomes resigned to lack of satisfaction in sex, woman can actually feel grateful for premature ejaculation in the knowledge that everything will soon be over."

I know there are so many long-time married women who go through this (and now I believe it's the *thought* of the woman wanting the man to hurry up and ejaculate that actually can make premature ejaculation happen--I know I have been there too many times).

There is also a quote in one of her books (and I can't find it, doggonnit!) where she talks about how women use sleep/tiredness as a defense mechanism against sex. I also used that tactic *so many times* in my marriage.

Now, I know that karezza not only relaxes me, it fulfills me and heals me to the point where it is more important to me than any sleep could ever be! (and if you knew how protective I used to be of my sleep, you'd understand how amazing this is!)

And for Sid, since you have children, apparently the loving effects from karezza can easily spill over to the entire family to make everyone live more harmoniously...I think about how many children live in homes where there is not a loving relationship between the parents and what that teaches them about how to be with each other in life. I hope Nancy will read about all the positive effects and join together with you soon!

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

You've got it.

Rachel, you've hit it right on the head. I read these passages too and I think I even quoted from the second one in the not too distant past. When I read these passages they really resonate with me. I believe this is exactly what is going on. It describes us to a tee. This has always been the pattern: I would initiate and work on heating her up, perform oral sex on her so that she would have an orgasm, then I would have an orgasm, then we went to sleep.

It's not that Nancy doesn't find me sexy, it's just that sex has had so little to offer her.

I find Richardson's book so interesting because they seem to offer so much more for both of us.

When I was in the throws of my addiction using porn and masturbating all the time, Nancy once told me that she wanted to be able to connect with me on a spiritual level and I just wasn't there. At the time I thought I understood what she meant, but I now know that I didn't have a clue. I am convinced that with karezza that connection can really happen, but I've got a lot of resistance from a lot of years of disappointment to overcome.

Nancy has been staying up late the last several nights doing work. She has a busy week with her job right now. She also has a difficult time going to sleep and she would never be able to go to sleep while "plugged in."

I've just got to be patient and remind myself that there will be an "opportunity" and that eventually she will get it.

-Sid

Couldn't these be construed as arguments

for splitting up? Seems like if a woman doesn't want me anymore...I'll find another. At least that's what I've done up until now. If sacred sex of the tantric or karezza variety are supposed to be the escape hatch from the passion cycle - and there's none of that happening - then what is a partner to do? Of course, I never married anybody either, despite opportunities.

Manifestation of Distress

Yes, well, and you don't have four kids either who would be significantly impacted by such a decision. Ultimately that is where this may go, but for now I am trying to remember that this is simply a manifestation of her distress, some unhealed hurt from her past is causing her to react in this way. I'm reminding myself that it is not about me. Hard part about this is that it still impacts me. Nonetheless, her decision not to have physical intimacy is ultimately more about her than it is about me.

I am hoping that by giving her space and safety she can address these issues and find some resolution. As far as I am concerned, this is where the rubber hits the road in a relationship. If my own unhealed hurts around abandonment, powerlessness or whatever overwhelm me, then neither of us have a chance. However, if I am able to stay in my "adult reality" then HOPEFULLY she can find a way to resolve whatever internal conflict is going on for her that is telling her (completely irrationally) it is better not to have physical intimacy.

. . . And then there are other times where I think, what if I had just remained a swinging single ski bum. SIGH.

-Sid

I accept life unconditionally. Most people ask for happiness on condition.
Happiness can only be felt if you don't set any condition.
-Artur Rubinstein

Good luck man...

Maybe things will work out. Those changes in approach suggested by Hotspring could be the ticket. I'm a bum myself so what do I know haha. I admire your courage, keep up the good work.

I know this road

Izzy is not refusing sex but is REALLY not interested. She just read Self Made Man by Norah Vincent http://www.thrivingnow.com/norah-vincent-self-made-man/ and asked me to bed! (a week ago)
I've been away for a 2 nights and I am not interested in a physical connection. That is unheard of in our 34 year relationship (unless I was hurt or angry). This is the beginning of our 3rd day together and I'm not desperately trying to figure out how to get some sugar from her. I'm not trying to figure out how to make space for us to connect. I'm just letting it unfold. Damn...got my Zen groove on. It's scary. I might really change. I might give up my "I need you" "I deserve more" persona. Yikes!
Up until now, this October deadline has included the fantasies of leaving and lovers (which I have actively, aggressively, attempted to suppress). A couple of weeks ago, I looked across the table at her, and said to myself, "There is no way I'm going to leave this woman." I wasn't a particulary loving sentiment as much as an admission of truth. The leaving fantasies have shifted to, "Hell, she might leave if I change." We'll see. Like you, until October I'm not asking her to change. If I've got a problem, I'm looking for the change in me. I'm even starting to think October is becoming irrelevant. I dunno....this is some shit.....blessings

Hey Sid - Good for you for

Hey Sid -

Good for you for sticking with things. The challenge with willpower and the exploration of that I feel is often to NOT do something, rather than do something (leave her). Of course this isn't always true in every case but these challenges are asking you and your wife to take things to a new level. Great that you are willing to go there. Maybe getting to a willingness to go to that next level for her might mean having more help with the kids, etc. I don't mean to imply there's an imbalance in your relationship, but if, instead of focusing on the new form of lovemaking, you could really HEAR her and ask her if there is anything you can do to help her have more time for herself, more support with the kids, then she wont be as tired and will have more energy. That gesture will be worlds of difference between feeling supported and feeling like you are just another needy child demanding her energy. This work is all about reprograming, learning to make love all the time, which in some situations, may mean helping your spouse break the pattern of depletion. I'm sure you have demands on your time too and might be overextended yourself, and so that means as a couple maybe having a conversation about how you can simplify your life and build a vision of a life that includes having more energy and time for lovemaking and other important things like solitude. One thing I've noticed in my life is that I will get more demanding in my needs for intimacy and sex when I have failed to see life as my beloved and instead have transferred all of my needs for intimacy onto my lover. What my "need" for sex is really telling me is that I long to be penetrated by life, to feel the textures, smells, sensual offerings of live, to flow with it, to immerse myself in being alive, to be fully alert, present, and turned on by life. When we prioritize this need to come back into relationship with the Beloved as Life, our lover comes into alignment more easily as a reflection of that. Just my two cents.

And while yes, a woman's stating that she is tired might be a way to avoid sex, it also might be that she is really actually just tired. With four kids? Wow. You bet.

How will you initiate yourself into advancing the storyline?

What I've noticed, is that the seeds we sow only sprout later on, but they will sprout.

I have been very impressed with Diana Richardson's Art of Tantric Sex and have begun to deepen into relaxed lovemaking on a whole new level. This is healing sex. The potential for transformation is so huge. It is about relaxation. If your partner has not shown up and mirrored your willingness to do this work, that probably means there is more settling, more relaxation that you need to find in yourself. When she senses that in you, your presence will be relaxing and she will eventually mirror back where you are at, because that's how resonance works. A slower, more coherent wavelength will naturally entrain a more scattered and incoherent one, over time.

Relax in presence, and discover the potency of your patience and devoted love.

Yes

[quote=hotspring]One thing I've noticed in my life is that I will get more demanding in my needs for intimacy and sex when I have failed to see life as my beloved and instead have transferred all of my needs for intimacy onto my lover. What my "need" for sex is really telling me is that I long to be penetrated by life, to feel the textures, smells, sensual offerings of live, to flow with it, to immerse myself in being alive, to be fully alert, present, and turned on by life. When we prioritize this need to come back into relationship with the Beloved as Life, our lover comes into alignment more easily as a reflection of that[/quote]

This is so, so, so, so, so SO, SO, SO true for me, as well!

(and my comments about sleep being a defense weren't directed at Sid--my bad--I should have clarified--I was directing them to Sood and Jesse's comments above. Of COURSE Sid's wife is tired!! I can't even imagine!)

Rachel (formerly known as rediscovered)

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Advancing the Storyline.

Good advice Hotspring. I love that phrase "initiate yourself into advancing the storyline."

It's not that I don't pull my share. I grew up with a father who expected the world to wait on him and decided as a child I would never treat a significant other in that way. I do a lot to try to make sure I am pulling my weight on the household chores side of things.

However, I do have a strong sense that in someways she views my desire for sex as another demand for her energy. Ironically, she will willingly take time so we can play a game in the evening or even share an intimate hug, but the sex thing is entirely a different matter.

I also sense that there is a cycle of "depletion" that I would love to help her break, but I also know that I can't "fix" it for her. It's a question of balance and I think all I can do is give loving support while she tries to find her balance. Karezza sounds like a wonderful tool for helping maintain balance. I've told her about the tool and even given her the instruction manual but ultimately it's going to be up to her to decide to pick it up and try it.

Thanks as always for your wisdom. You've given me a lot to think about.

-Sid

Acceptance is a letting-go process. You let go of your wishes and demands that life can be different. It's a conscious choice.
-Gary Emery

So

2 minutes each of mutual stroking (taking turns) is out?

Keep in mind that it supposedly takes about three weeks to establish a new habit, so you might have to remind her for a while, even if she's willing.

Not sure what your question is

Unless *both* partners want to give karezza an honest try, you don't have karezza. Smile

But that doesn't mean you can't (sometimes) find a balance you like. Virgil often reports benefits from his arrangement, in which his wife has conventional orgasms and he forgoes ejaculation. And Darryl started 13 years ago with avoiding orgasm...and his wife kept orgasming for a couple years.

As for "testing," I don't know that that theory is very sound. I think a lot of female projections and irritability come from post-orgasm neurochemical ripples. When this downside of forced female orgasm is factored into the equation, its benefits for men and women aren't as certain as the mainstream media insists.

Trying a gentler approach to cultivating sexual energy and releasing sexual tension is worthwhile, just to see the alternative. You could discover that a lot of that "testing" behavior disappears and that you and your mate look a lot more delicious to each other.

I sometimes think

that when we think we know what we want (you wanted passion), we're given it...so we can see its limitations.

So I suspect that since what you're looking for has expanded, you'll attract a different kind of partner next time around.

Here's a friend's account of his search for passion:

When sex evaporated from my marriage bed, I thought that what
had been missing was passion. In fact, I prayed for the return of
what I called “passion” in my life. It surfaced in the form of a
red-haired Scorpio who looked excellent in hot pants.At some
point during the stormy ride that followed, I stumbled upon a
dictionary definition of passion. “Any intense emotion,” it said,
“such as the sufferings of Jesus upon the cross.” Sure enough
I had found passion, all right. Brief as it was, our relationship
made crucifixion look kind of appealing. I now realize that what
I really want is love . . . not suffering.