What do men say about karezza experiences?

Submitted by Karezza Korner on
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  • When I started down this path, it wasn't clear to me how skipping the O was going to be a good idea. It seemed ridiculous. The reason I felt that way, and probably why most people do is that I wasn't aware of the cost of the O. And I think it's hard to notice since most adults (I'll speak for the guys anyway) are always having an O within the two week recovery period so there is never an opportunity to observe it and make the connection. Porn [becoming mainstream] hasn't helped either, since it only serves to emphasize the apparent central role of O in sex and by extension, the myth that giving up O is a sacrifice.

    The other thing I notice is a pervasive cultural bias that marriage + time = boring sex. The Coolidge Effect is indeed real, but our society has incorrectly attributed marriage as the cause. We have been fed this "alternate fact" over and over to the point where it has become lore, requiring a huge paradigm shift to break free of it. Even now, after years of Karezza practice, I find myself feeling amazed that we can continue to experience ever increasing levels of enjoyment and connection with each other, that our sex sessions are longer and more frequent, and our feelings of affection for one another increase, our moods are way better, and we're just happier people in general!

    Because these hurdles exist for most people and are so large to get over, trying to explain Karezza seems to get the same reaction as if I was talking about iridology, astrology or some other equally supersitious idealogy. I have concluded that it's kind of pointless to talk to people about it unless they ask. Instead, I'll just get them a copy of CPA and pray that they read it from cover to cover.

    Today I had a funny thought that this idea of a "pleasure quotient" suggests math that could describe the "value proposition" of Karezza. In my case, the pleasure of Karezza seems to be continuously rising; we are constantly reaching states that feel beyond what we did before, we have sex for a lot longer and more often than before, and we're both enjoying it a lot more than before (especially her).

    Since orgasm is a peak experience that lasts a very short time, it got me thinking about "the area under the curve". So, to look at it mathematically, Karezza is better than orgasmic sex because the area under the curve is way higher (and getting bigger all the time). Having done the experiment enough times (both ways), it's become very clear to me both experientially and mathematically that orgasm isn't worth it (unless I'm trying to make a baby). That helps me ignore the voice in my head that says "go for it, an orgasm would feel great right now".

    But apart from its quantitative difference, Karezza is qualitatively different (for me) in that each experience is unique; not obscured by the mechanical, automatic drive towards release. And of course, there are the many pair-bonding benefits; we are both happier with our marriage and with life in general

  • I can testify. Your husband sounds a lot like myself and lots of other guys, before we discovered Karezza. Conventional sex with my wife just didn't satisfy all my needs, regardless of how good it was or how many orgasms we had, it was like I was just not quite satisfied or I needed that little extra something, be it masturbation, handjobs, oral, porn or whatever. As we continued on our Karezza journey that all disappeared, I now have no desires other than lots of Karezza, which is a beautiful thing, it has been so liberating for me I can hardly explain it. Used to be I couldn't sit in front of a computer without looking at something to do with porn, now it is almost repulsive to me. Masturbation, what a joke, that's kids stuff! The need to have more, or different, or weird stuff is a thing of the past.

  • Let me tell you: not coming during sex was the best think I've ever experienced. All the pent-up energy really takes it to the next level and transforms what sex really is. A lot of guys shy away from hardmode because they feel like they might get into a relationship and don't want to risk not being able to have sex. I say have sex and just don't come. You can give them great orgasms because you literally last as long as you want. If you want more info on that check out some Mantak Chia (Multiorgasmic Man). Finally the 100 days hardmode ended and I was able to come during sex. It was different after that, but I had learned what I needed to learn and was ready to just relax into pleasure and let my hard work pay off. It was so amazing. So serene. There was nothing I wanted in life. I was 100% satisfied. Just need to unload

  • My wife an I have been practicing Karezza for about 3 years. We have our own Karezza style; it's a blend of slow, soft gentle touches, hardcore full-on conventional sex (still slower, i.e. no pounding, but no less enthusiastic) and breaks in between. We have reached such a level where we can fully let go, enjoy sex without limits for hours and not blow it. When considering your situation, please keep in mind that not everyone does it the way we do - I'm just reporting on our experience, YMMV.

    It's only in the past few months that we've really gotten to the point we've been aiming for. As you can imagine, that's a lot of times we fell short and got to experience the negative consequences. My wife got it much quicker than I did. She's been able to avoid orgasm almost all the time for probably the past year and a half. I guess I'm the slow learner :-).

    For me, the key insight only happened recently when I noticed that I could take amazing amounts of stimulation without having (or even wanting) an orgasm. When one of us reaches a level where the idea might enter our head to want one, we just take a break. It occurred to me that the only times I have had an orgasm were preceded by me having an intention to have one. Afterwards, I could always trace back to a thought, a justification, or some indication that the idea was already in my mind. For example, I might notice myself thinking something like this: "hey, due to circumstances, we won't be able to be together for a week, so I could have an orgasm now and it woudn't be a big deal". When that thought gets stuck in my head, I'm sure to blow it! Conversely, when there is no intention to orgasm, I don't. I find this amazing.

    So we have been doing this 3x per week for a while now, and each time we are amazed that we reach a place that seems higher, more connected, deeper, more exciting than that last. There appears to be no limit. I'm telling you this because, initially I thought we had to give up the kind of sex we love to have with each other in order to get the benefits of Karezza, but I have discovered that in fact we can get to the place we want to, it just takes time, intention and practice. And the rewards are tremendous. We are enjoying each other 100x what we used to, and it just keeps getting better. On top of that, we get along much much better and are happier (especially her - no longer moody and volatile - and it's not just me noticing, she reports this).

  • Our married life together was very loving and passionate and our children brought us great joy, but some years ago my wife found she had lost all desire. I found this a very difficult time until my lovely wife had a spinal operation and to our great joy she found her sensitivity renewing. At the same time she found an article in our weekend newspaper which told of a technique called called Karrezza, something we had never heard of before, but it just clicked with both of us. This was four years ago and within a short while we found our love life was reborn. We could hardly believe that such a simple change in our love-making had re-kindled our love in every way. Today, we feel that our love life becomes better and more fulfilling than it has ever been, and it has broken down any barriers that seemed to exist between us. Today we are on the same wavelength with each other, something we find so beautiful. We have often said to each other that Karrezza is like a journey without a destination and that when we are not making love we are still loving each other as we are always so affectionate with each other. To us, Karrezza is with us always and the journey through life becomes more fulfilling and beautiful every day. Early on we bought your book Marnia and found it so interesting and made so much sense, and so we thank you from our hearts for introducing Karrezza to us. We cuddle morning and night in our bedroom and make beautiful love together a couple of times a week. We have been married 55 years and I am 80 years young and my lovely wife is 74. Thank you.

  • We also didn't know about karezza though we have been doing something like this for about 3 years. Few days back I just learned the name karezza from here. It is good to know that so many people are into this what we do daily. It actually was my beloved wife's idea. Being exhausted from daily work, we didn't use to feel much attraction for sex and it became a weekly affair. My wife asked me to just connect with her before sleeping. I found it so effortlessly easy and moreover very much intimate. We enjoyed it so much that we started to regularly falling sleep being connected. And what we started experimentally has become our part and parcel of our life. We now know true lovemaking means attachment of mind and soul, not only body.

    (a year later) Me and my wife have been married for 14 years and we started doing karezza for last 4 years. We have learned many things by experience. To us karezza is not only sex, its more like bonding behavior to us. It's the most intimate way to express love and affection to each other. It makes us calm and relaxed. We mostly remain still and try feel the unity. We feel like our body, mind and soul get attached. I don't know is it related to any kind of spirituality but our almost effortless intimate lovemaking binds us in a complete harmony. Staring, smiling, touching, embracing and kissing all these things come out so naturally from us whenever together in the other time at home.

    I think karezza has made us more balanced in our life. Its positive feedback makes me not only a better lover, but also a better husband and father. There is always a stream of love and affection flowing into our house. I hardly remember the last quarrel I had with my wife. We are now more dutiful to our kids who are the fruits of our love. I personally find my mind in better composure and my body in a more energetic state to do all my work. Same goes for my wife and I bet my wife have become not only a better wife, but also one of the best mother for sure. Not in the family, in outside we think we have become better person too. We do hear compliments from relatives, friends, neighbors that how happy, lovely and young we do look. It's great to have no performance issue and no arrangements. She is always there for me and me too for her. Without any pressure and goal, we can now enjoy the intimacy more intensely.

  • I think of Karezza as a paradigm shift. It's a fundamentally different way of being [together], but it's hard to explain to someone who hasn't actually experienced it themselves.

    The way I experience it is that after some time away from orgasms, I don't really desire them anymore (and I don't feel like masturbating either). But when I've had one or more recently, then I do want them. So it's like there's a neurochemical switch in my brain that one orgasm triggers which puts me into that mode for a while. My theory is that it's the way humans regulate "mating season". Since we don't have a mating season, this mechanism probably originated as a way to elevate the importance of mating activities when mating opportunities were available, and conversely to be able to prioritize other important activities (like hunting) when they weren't.

    Theory aside, you may find (as I did) that skipping the "O" for a while takes you to a new place; one where many more subtle sensations and emotions can rise to the surface. It's like walking into a dark room. At first, you don't see anything. But as you acclimate to your new surroundings, you start to see things with more and more clarity.

  • Interesting thread where various forum members discuss their karezza experience: A New Member and Convert!

  • After moving quite gently in my wife (and she doing the same) for about ten minutes I felt that orgasm like feeling again with no obvious ejaculation. I stayed hard and after a minute I asked my wife if it was alright to move again. It was, and again there was that incredible feeling without the usual shuddering of normal ejaculatory orgasm. The really interesting feeling was how relaxed I felt and how affectionate I feel to my wife. I usually want to carry on caressing her afterwards which if course doesn't tend to happen with normal orgasms!

  • My wife and I have been doing something like karezza for around three years without knowing about it. After learning about karezza from here I think I should share some of our experience.

In our thirteen years of marriage we have two kids together. But we are never in so much love like now. We make love 2-3 times everyday except her menstrual days. We connect at bed and fall asleep connected. In the morning we connect again and start our day with a hour long lovemaking. We don't fix our time. We just act naturally. There are times when we connect just for a few minutes in a busy evening and there are times when we connect for 3-4 hours on a weekend night.

What is bit different from what we do and karezza is we don't have rules. We both know that orgasm is just an impulse which ruins the sustained pleasure. We both avoid having orgasm to keep our lovemaking flowing. But there are some rare days when we engaged in slow conventional sex specially before her menstrual days. We actually do what we enjoy and don't mind to have a orgasmic day in a month.

Our approach to each other has changed so much. My wife now hold my hands, hug or kiss me with no reason. And I don't miss a chance to be intimate with her when alone together. We find ourselves more active and lively. Our kids find us more caring and friendly.

My wife has been always a cuddly type. Connecting before was her idea which sounded cute and romantic to me. We started it as fun and now it has become our daily practice. We found the true way of making love. I don't think we will ever go back to our old conventional sex life.

  • One thing i am learning is that the degree to which our sessions satisfy isn't related to how turned on we/she is. We've had semi aroused sessions and barely aroused sessions both of which leave me satisfied. The difference relates for me at the moment to the quality of our connection and what i am just going to call the emotional resolution. If i feel met, welcomed, and loved then i feel sexually satisfied, afterwards, like i could get by without sex for ages. And, this even works in our sleep. Sometimes if we are really tired, we just connect, then almost immediately both drop off to sleep. This is an amazing experience.

  • Karezza is more like a bonding session to us and it always starts after some kissing and embraces. Nothing like so called 'warm up' is required. The hardness I get and the wetness she has is enough to initiate our karezza love making after those passionate kisses. I enter her very slowly and take few minutes to get into fully inside her. Though we remain mainly still afterwards, she produces enough wetness that I feel. I said once that it is one of the beauties of karezza that we don't need that hot lustful mood to make love anymore.

  • When I unraveled the whole dynamic of conventional sex for myself, and learned the art of Karezza sex (a form of gentle, affectionate, Bonding Sex without orgasm or ejaculation) my life improved in ways that I never imagined possible. It restored the purpose of my life; it made me a conscious lover, able o serve and bring male nurturing and healing to one woman. Now I can make love to my woman every day, for long periods of time, and not suffer any negative side effects. I never get tired of being with her and wanting to stay connected. I am nurtured by the divine love of a woman. I no longer feel any sexual tension and I don’t need to look at pornography or find different sexual partners to satisfy me. There is a feeling of complete equilibrium and calmness in me. And because we schedule time to make love for at least an hour every day, we look forward to it as a way to meditate and commune spiritually. My wife is now eager to connect with me and is very receptive to our sexual union as often as possible. Karezza sex has completely changed her attitude towards me and has altered her feelings about sex and about men in general. I realize now how healing this type of lovemaking is for both men and women. After having Bonding Sex with my wife for at least an hour, there is a delightful feeling that I have been welcomed into her heart and truly loved, unlike anything I have ever experienced. Bonding Sex is an electro-magnetic event, the joining together of the electrical polarity of the male (the penis) and the magnetic polarity of the female (the vagina), creating a flowing energetic circuit between the two. In Mating Sex, there is not enough time to establish this circuit and thereby stimulate the positive love center of the woman, located between her breasts. Unfortunately, this means a man never receives this wonderful divine energy from her deepest center. This love energy coming from a woman is the most powerful feeling I have ever experienced in my entire life. It is also good to give your woman at least a few minutes of gentle massage each day, separate from the time you engage in intercourse. That way, she can more easily relax and open herself to the nurturing that you can give her. Completely giving up orgasm for this different kind of slow sex is the most significant accomplishment of my life and has dramatically changed everything for the better. The choice was simple for me, and once I made it, I knew that I would never again engage in fertilization-driven mating sex with a woman. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain in learning the art of karezza sex. I have never seen my wife so happy, fulfilled and at peace in our relationship as I have since I changed the way I make love to her. We also noticed that this kind of sex makes us look especially attractive to each other. My wife thinks there might be a connection to the fact that in nature, the females always choose to mate with the males that are the strongest and most robust with life-force vitality while rejecting the weak ones. I think most men will agree that being rejected by a female is a very painful experience. When I stopped depleting myself, within a few weeks she began to express that I was very appealing and alluring to her, like I had a strong electrical “charge” around me. In comparison, she said that when I was ejaculating regularly, I appeared drained, devitalized, worn out and not so interesting. Here's a poem I wrote, inspired by our karezza lovemaking:
    Mystical Union Lying in stillness only for a time, my lover entwined with me, like roots of a single tree held close and bound to the earth. On the bed in our quiet room, I breathe easily and softly, gazing into her peaceful eyes. I begin to float away, caught like a feather in the wind. Soaring higher - upward and out where light fades and darkened stillness arises from the primal void. I soar around the galaxy, past worlds and cosmic dust toward the central sun, where the most exquisite flowers bloom, with colors swirling in violet haze. And from the depths of her moist cave, I feel her again and slowly move, vibrant and pulsating, inching ever closer to the inner sanctuary. I finally rest in her garden of delight, like a warrior who has traveled a long journey, returning home to serve his Queen and bringing divine healing. I can feel her wide open heart, like undulating waves of the sea. She and I are free.

    Read more.

  • I'm 49 now and was 43 when I discovered your material. Ever since then I've had increasing gaps between binges on internet porn. Since March of this year I have broken the habit and have fallen deeply in love with my wife really for the first time. We're like teenagers all of a sudden and are able to have intimacy and sex now that was simply unheard of before. I know you have heard a lot of this before from others and it is remarkable how wonderful life is without the big O to get in the way. But this is not the real reason I wanted to write. I had been suffering with what appeared to be gallstones and chronic liver pains that were extremely painful and sporadic. I went on liver cleanses, changed my diet etc but they still kept coming. And then I noticed a pattern - about two to three days after a binge I'd get them and once I worked that out I realised that the intensity of my addiction and my orgasms was really affecting my stress levels and causing my gall bladder to go into spasm. Since then they have never come back. I just wanted to let you know that orgasms and health, in my opInion, are very closely linked and though I have no understanding of the science I know what a huge effect they had on me and I think it will be a few years more yet before I truly start to calm down. I'm better but I can get better. That's what I love about what you stumbled upon - its a process, it never ends, it just gets replaced with something else richer and more meaningful and deeper and I really believe that you are right about karezza being good for your immune system - we don't get sick any more. My other half was deeply sceptical to begin with but now is a total convert.
  • I don't feel estranged from her anymore... on the contrary... my love for [my wife] is growing and expanding, which is - as strange as it seems - so unusual... since I was used to the feeling of sadness and emptyness after sex my whole life.... this weird 'I want to go now, watch a movie alone, eat a lot of fat and sugar and have sex in a few hours again' feeling... never again!!! It sucks!!!

    In a strange way, most people these days are used to feel estranged to each other after (conventional) sex... nothing I have to explain here... I learned that fact myself more or less one month ago.

    [Reply from another guy] Now, I usually feel this way after sex, but I didn't used to. We had kind of "hot sex" the other day, and I didn't feel good afterwards. Today was cooler and more sublime and I wasn't trying to get her off, and I felt really good after.

  • My wife admitted that for the longest time she was feeling nothing during lovemaking. Now (with karezza), something is finally begin to open for her. And the counter-effect on me is unbelievable. Everything I thought about human relationship between man and woman is turned upsidedown. We feel that the psychological effect is really just tied to the physiological and energetic connection between the polarities. The worst problem for most couples is the stagnation of energy due to a kind of inferior thought current. Now, it feels more and more like we are experiencing a level of evenness that goes on for hours and hours. And all the years of spiritual meditation did nothing to bring me to this kind of level.
  • We found that, after an initial rush of excitement, a deep sense of peacefulness overtook both of us during the weeks following—as I continued to not orgasm. Not long ago, I would never have imagined loving the thought of not ejaculating in a woman! But we have arrived at a place of deep sexual happiness.
  • Fast is Slow - Slow is Fast [From post] "... At some point, we decided to try practicing with a timer. I had bought one of those Enso meditation timers from Dharmacrafts (the kind with a temple bell chime), which can be set for various time intervals. We decided to loop our sessions with 9 minutes of movement, followed by 3 minutes of stillness. During lovemaking sessions, we’d run this for a total of an hour and a half. And it was amazing, because within two weeks, we were able to monitor our pleasure level so well that we no longer needed the timer at all. Once our brains rewired, we discovered we could freely move continuously, effortlessly and maintain a slow, sensual pace, ebbing and flowing without slipping over the edge at all. ..."
  • As a man, when I am continent, I am much more creative, dynamic, and energetic. As a husband, I am much more forgiving, giving, and attentive with my wife. And, when I am continent, I can perform at the drop of a hat: for my 52nd birthday, we had five separate sessions in the course of 12 hours (grapeseed oil lubrication helps immensely). It was great for me, and my wife seemed to enjoy things, too. My only lapses from continence are accidents; we stay away from purposeful ejaculation and peak orgasm, because it is really tough on my body, now that I am much more finely attuned to it.

  • I was listening to that Tantra guy, Alex somebody. He was talking about energy up the spine and all that which I have heard and read about for years. I know that drawing and sending the root energy upwards is a common theme in Taoist, Tantra, and other sexual practices. I have never really felt much in that way and quite frankly I'm not much drawn to it. I think of our experience is that we jump in the energy pool and simply play around, float in it, splash around, enjoy the sensation, and then get out and dry off, so to speak. A masculine/feminine play of sorts. Thats not to say that I don't feel energy buzzing in my body after she and I enjoy some karezza, because I do. But kundilini, rising energy up to my crown charka and all that stuff, nada. Just doesn't feel that that's "the goal" for us.
  • I sense this karreza way really Makes Love, and makes extra energy available for the world.
  • I always found conventional sex incredibly pleasurable; but I never liked the fact it had to end, and especially not in the usual, frantic way. For me, it's not that the pleasure of unconventional sex is greater, so much as my appreciation of it. The slowing down and prolongation of intercourse is so much more deeply felt and fulfilling, that all desire for bringing it to an end - still less an abrupt one - becomes lost. Most things turn out to be better taken slowly, and sex is no exception.

    I wouldn't say my sex drive has changed much, overall. It's still circumstantially and seasonally driven (warm weather, long days, free time and nobody else around, as opposed to being wrapped up against the cold, in the dark, busy or sociable); but my wife's has certainly increased.

    The major insight I've gained from practicing Karezza is that orgasm is entirely optional. It's no longer a case of 'denying' myself a climax; having one has become an occasional, not particularly exciting indulgence. For my wife, though, while likening Karezza to 'eating an everlasting ice cream', the marrow shaking pleasure of orgasm is still her primary goal.

  • (Hiking in the mountains) There we found a soft, mossy place on top of the cliffs, surrounded by small trees. And there we decided to make love. I was somehow natural. Disposing some clothes to get a matress, and then cuddling and connecting. Slow karezza sex under a warm Septemer sun. Wonderful experience, had never thought that we were able to do something like that. I think this will be something we will never forget.
  • I got one of the nicest compliments from my wife this morning. After some beautiful Karezza, over a cup of coffee, my wife told me how much she enjoyed Karezza and she loved how gentle I am now when making love with her. "You are so gentle, my vagina just loves it", "it has become so sensitive and you feel so good now", I was blown away, my wife rarely talks about sex. It was such a compliment. She then described how much more sensitive and gentle I have become in general. Wow! So, one more reason to continue on this Karezza journey.

  • As for me and my wife, the 'no orgasm' road is pretty smooth, no bumps or grinds or potholes, no traffic jams, few detours, a hairpin turn every now and then, no roadblocks, no speed limits, no police, no toll booths, sometimes a little construction work, sometimes 'slippery pavement ahead', great scenery around each curve, and over every mountain another surprise, and best of all, that road just stretches out in front of us begging for us to put some more miles behind us, so that's where we are heading, down that Karezza road, on cruise control with the seats laid back, crusin, not brusin, ha ha lol.
  • A woman wrote, "G has been practicing Karezza with his new girlfriend.  He says the only drawback is that you want to stay in bed for hours and hours... He loves the intimacy it provides."
  • Karezza seems like an expanded balloon to me. You can pressure it up to a certain level and play with it, but the trick is, don’t over blow and don’t release. Then it can become a marvelous dance that has no real definable limits, except perhaps, not to reach orgasm. It just goes on and on, a beautiful joyous communion until you want to get up and do something else. I was thinking about this balloon metaphor the other day and started laughing uncontrollably. My love and I are stunned at how the simplest, playful joy, cuddling, kissing, snuggling naked can be so liberating and nurturing to the deepest core.

    So often in the past we thought that there must be a formula, a method to learn. But there isn’t, it’s just a rise and flow of effortless motion, softness, tingling arousal and focused attention locked on one another. Once there is no goal to get to a release, it just becomes gentle touch and affection. It has become the center of our life together, resting in this quiet space where our loving feelings just wash over one another. I've practiced Vipasanna (breath meditation) and Biogenic meditation for years, and yet nothing has brought me a sense of mindful attention on the Now moment like this has.

  • I've been practising Karezza with my wife since I started NoFap. Aside from re-igniting a sexless marriage, refraining from ejaculation has yielded enormous physical mental and emotional benefits. I do, however, give my partner orgasms. 1- For people in long term relationships doing NoFap, did karezza cause any relapse? Not for me. 2-What was it like doing it? It's no longer just sex but an absolute frenzy of heated passion. Makes me want to devour every inch of her, 3-Did you like it over traditional sex? Are you kidding? Hell yeah! 4-How did you do karezza for the first time? Just the normal way that we usually have sex but I wouldn't allow myself to ejaculate. Instead of rolling over and going to sleep, I felt supercharged. 5-Do you think that you'll be using Karezza for the rest of your life with your partner? I wouldn't want to go back to the way I was feeling before. 6-And did not having an orgasm make you want to masturbate? I learned how to move all of the sex energy from an orgasm up and circulate it throughout my body. During the day I feel waves of ecstasy, mostly within my chest. Most of the raw passion that I would get from an orgasm, I am learning to redirect this passion into my everyday life.
  • Our karezza experimenting has become an official habit and is wonderful. What really helped things was a terrycloth robe my wife bought. She likes to be warm at night, but the robe allows, err, easy access to touching varyious parts of her. As we have done more non-performance related stuff, I have had a greater desire to touch, hug, and just relax next to my wife. The robe has been a big hit. Before karezza, my wife was worried about having to perform, and felt that any touching of breasts or genitals was the start of sex leading to the finish line. She has always liked touch, but did not like that it usually ended as sex. She struggled with getting "excited" (don't want to get too graphic) and found intercourse non-enjoyable. Now that there is no pressure, not only does she welcome the touch, but her entire body is more sexual and relaxed at the same time. Entirely different woman. She loves intercourse now, because she knows there is no pressure and no performance required. Plus intercourse doesn't have to continue until the finish line. It is just a part of bonding. Karezza has also relaxed me, and I'm more social than in anytime I can remember in the past. I work out quite a bit, and now find myself talking with more people at the club (mostly male). I have a slightly different take on recovery than some others. I believe that practicing karezza is a good way to recover (from heavy porn use). (Or just bonding, hugging, spooning, etc). You have to make sure you don't take it too far, but the results can be amazing. I became very relaxed and started to approach the feeling of being close to a female. Porn can't come close to that feeling. Bonding in that manner brings you closer to the other person and helps you feel better all over. But again, you need to avoid edging or allowing your brain to turn into orgasm mode. I cannot being to say how grateful I am from taking up karezza. My wife and I both love it, and it is more enjoyable than our former orgasm-driven sex. As my wife have gone down the karezza journey, we have learned how much it is about two people loving each other and enjoying the experience of being together. When we are really in the karezza zone, arousal and attraction comes naturally and doesn't require any elaborate pleasure seeking methods. Just holding each other, especially me cupping her breast and her holding my penis moves a tremendous amount of energy. The holding isn't really sexual, it's a way of transferring energy and enhancing our experience together. I question how more extreme things that can push someone closer to edging are a benefit with karezza. For me, karezza us exactly the opposite. And it is a wonderful experience. Things that attempt to create pure arousal are things we have backed away from. The energy is now coming from elsewhere, mainly not having to perform and just relaxing and allowing yourself to live and enjoy the moment.
  • I've been so amazed at the impact on our love life of non-orgasmic love making. Absolutely amazing.
  • I've noticed there seems to be a sense of magnetism while we're joined. I, at least for now, feel it at the head of my penis. It's very odd. I feel like I'm just being sucked right in, but I don't mean that in a "physical" sense. Not sure if that's normal. Either way, it's strangely wonderful. I'm finding myself having to do, or even move, less or less, and it actually feels 100 times better. And I still think I've barely even begun to feel the full time effects, considering that I've orgasmed suddenly twice. It's strange because I almost don't like finding myself suddenly finding myself climaxing without doing much of anything (though it of course feels great). Yet it's wonderful because it gets rid of the need to... well, tire myself out like some retired, and not much loved, porn star.
  • Once you develop a true understanding of the benefits of Karezza a paradigm shift occurs and you never quite look at the world with the same lens again. You come to realize that following our fertilization-driven genetic programming is what drives the extreme neurochemical cycling and the resulting perception changes in how we see our partner and the world. Possessing this knowledge is like opening Pandora’s Box in that once you learn the cause and effect of your neurochemistry there is no going back. No putting the knowledge back in the box so to speak. You can use this knowledge to take conscious control of your sexuality – so if you choose to be orgasmic you do so with a more complete understanding of what happens when you engage with another in this way. Or you can choose to engage on a much deeper, much more profound level. Knowledge is power, and this knowledge is empowering in a way I cannot properly put to words.
  • What I have found is that in choosing to connect in this way with my lovely wife it changed the way in which I was received by her – and we both became less orgasm-centric and much more focused on enjoying the moment and truly being present. We regularly engage in intercourse that does not lead to an orgasm for her (particularly fond of slow drawn out rear entry while spooning) and totally enjoy sharing the delicious ebb and flow of bio-electric energy between us. Because I no longer deplete myself there are many more opportunities to connect and my lovely wife is taking advantage of my increased availability and we are having way more sex now in our late 40’s than we ever did in our 20’s. And the bonding and intimacy continue to grow even after all this time. You know you have it right when the younger folks tell you to “get a room” because we are so affectionate we literally cannot keep our hands off each other. When you connect on this level it is hard to stay mad at your partner and this has led to much more harmonious relations on a day to day basis. You attack obstacles and life challenges together because this puts you both on the same team. We very much enjoy “plugging in” and sharing our energy in this way whether it leads to orgasm(s) for her or not. And even though I choose not to have orgasms anymore, I find this extraordinarily pleasurable and fulfilling. I believe that I do actually absorb my wife's vaginal secretions through the skin of the penis and that there is something in these secretions that promotes extraordinary pleasure/satisfaction. My wife agrees it is the same from her end as well. There is just something divine/transcendent about the wet PVI connection you just cannot get in any other way. We still engage in various “other” sexual activities but neither my wife nor I seem to get the same level of satiation from them. I think the real “magic” of Karezza is the extended wet PIV allows you to maximize the bio-chemical/bio-electric exchange between partners. Definitely good stuff!
  • I told my girlfriend I want to try it, and I had my first really good experience with karezza about 2 hours ago. She still can't seem to grasp the concept, even though I told her that she could go on and orgasm if she wanted. Neither of us orgasmed in the end. She was left feeling a bit odd, but I really loved it. Now, I feel great and at peace with myself. I usually felt empty and tired after normal sex, now I feel energized. For the first time in a long time, I don't feel that I *need* sex, masturbation and orgasm to feel content and happy. That's really a relief. [A few days later] I was in her, while massaging her. After a while we spooned, and she got a chance to feel the peace and bliss that karezza could offer while in the proper state of mind. This was the first really nice experience of mutual karezza since we started to experiment with it.
  • Marnia, we posted back and forth a couple of times on your blog, I guess it must have been a couple of years ago. At the time your concepts intrigued me but I wasn't willing to forfeit orgasms for the promise of some feelings I already had access to. (I figured I had the best of both worlds.) As the saying goes, the only thing constant in life is change. Life got busy for my wife and me and our participation at the swingers parties fell off the things-to-do list as lower priorities. Not a problem, we had each other and that's what really counts. As time progressed, the effects of habituation began to set in, and we started taking each other for granted. I "needed" more and more sex while she "needed" less. We noticed this several times, and chose to manually override the programming and reset the infatuation perspective. Each time, the habituation got stronger and the reset was less complete. We were drifting apart despite our best efforts and intentions. I remembered your karezza stuff, and after an impressive sales pitch on my part, we decided to give it a try for a couple of weeks. I found ignoring the instinct for orgasm much easier than I expected, and I was delighted in the refreshed sensations from generous loving touches and extended play duration. Physically and emotionally, we are as close to each other as we've ever been, and we're enjoying this approach much more than I would have ever imagined. We're back to hot tubbing regularly and we've scheduled a party with some special friends for next month. Things are back on track in our lives and I have you and your crazy ideas to thank for that. I should fax you a special cuddle Wink
  • Today is week seven of experimenting with Karezza and increased bonding behaviors. My fiancee and I are in such a great place since we've started this. We seem to be in a place of sustained "in-love" feelings instead of just once in a while feeling those feelings. We're having a lot of fun with this even though it's been a little more difficult for me to stop masturbating. I wake up masturbating (still not orgasming) rather frequently as compared to before starting this experiment. I think that a large part of it has to do with the fact that my penis is extremely sensitive due to not orgasming. We're still learning all of this and are by no means experts but we can see the changes that are taking place in both of us. Another thing I've noticed is that I seem to have just a little bit more energy for all the little things in life that used to feel so much more like chores. I'm much more happy to get things done on my to do list, and seem to be a little more creative about how I go about things. It has also been seven weeks since indulging in (almost) any porn. We watched one together several nights ago and it just didn't turn us on the way it used to. We are growing together in a whole new way. This truly is simple and profound. I encourage every couple struggling with sex, emotional, compatibility and countless other issues to give this practice a REAL try and see what happens. It really will change your life and your experience together and I believe it will clear up a lot of issues, whether or not the relationship lasts.
  • My ED could have been due to other issues (stressful time of work at the time) though I had been noticing weaker erections while watching porn for the last few years. I'm happy to report that my karezza sessions with my girlfriend have resulted in tremendous erections. It's great to enjoy sexual energy without having orgasm as a goal.
  • After a year of experimenting, my wife "Sparkles" and I are engaging in Karezza type intercourse maybe 4 times a week. Sometimes 5, sometimes 3. Each lasts maybe 15 minutes to an hour, depending on her. I'm available for however long she is. It's no longer a struggle in any sense. She is really in charge but in a subtle way. She senses when I really want her, or we have a scheduled time, and she asks me if I want to lie down which is our code for intercourse.

    She has orgasms maybe 50% of the time, more or less. I think she is learning to relax more and not come but that's her business. I try to help her get the pleasure she wants, but I don' t dwell on it overly much. One thing I've realized more and more is that women love their men to give them a good fucking and enjoy their (the woman's) body, and that gives her great satisfaction. And because I have that attitude, in reality I am more available for her because I'm not focused on *her* or expecting her to do or be anything. I'm focused on myself. Women in general, acting on the feminine, want to please their men, and are pleased when their men are pleased. This probably sounds completely bonkers. But actually it isn't.

    We have a lot of pleasure these days. I have really discovered how to have what used to be orgasmic type pleasure, but all the time, any time, during intercourse and often just when she lightly strokes my body even non-genitally. It can be like a 30 minute orgasm but without ejaculation, without fallout, just all good. I've done this for awhile now and it's gotten better and better and better. The pleasure is greater than it used to be when I was experiencing an orgasm, but it goes on and on now. And erections go for as long as I want or need and since I don't ejaculate or have a "real" orgasm I'm ready all the time and I have those amazing strong feelings for her virtually all the time.

  • Okay, we've been snuggling and cuddling each day and each night, I would say 30 minutes to an hour. I have been leaving things to her and not being needy or pressuring in any way. So this morning Sparkles and I were snuggling and I felt a very close connection. And after about 30 minutes or so, I said, "Can I plug in?" and she said "Yes." I just whispered to her a suggestion to give presence to her vagina and it was an amazing experience for me. After maybe 10 minutes she adjusted herself and I went deeper than I ever remember. I felt suddenly very intimate, almost scarily intimate deep contact I have never experienced before. It felt kind of shocking to me almost. It was wonderful in a way I can't describe, but I am in a kind of awe over it. It feels unusually deep and scary wonderful.
  • I am back here with a very lovely wife of 3 1/2 months, and weare both happier than we have ever been. Prior to this, we had a wonderful 2 year relationship filled with an abundance of non-sexual touch, although we reserved any sexual activity for our marriage. Cupid's Poisoned Arrow opened our minds to the amazing power of touch and bonding behaviors, and gave us the confidence that we could build a life together without the usual pitfalls found in  common sex.

    With the exception of one or two nights since our wedding (and her being out of town for a week after 12 weeks), we have fallen asleep every night joined together in the scissors position. Usually, after between 2-3 hours, I think we are both so deeply relaxed that our bodies just kind of roll apart without either of us waking up. Once in a while, one of us will wake up and see what time it is (so we have some idea of how long we stay joined together). Much of the time, when one or both of us awake early in the morning no longer with PVI [penile-vaginal sex], we are touching limbs. So it seems that we often unconsciously reach out to maintain touch with each other even while we're asleep. (relaxation and polarity maybe?) A time or two, we have slept joined together for 4-5 hours before we woke up. Recently, we talked over whether we wanted to attempt rejoining in the middle of the night if one of us woke up, and we decided to give it a try. A few nights ago, I awoke about 2:30am, I woke her, we rejoined soft entry (the lamp was on for 30 seconds or less), and we immediately fell back asleep until I awoke at 5am. Half awake, I had a nice erection, and even the tiniest of movements in her vagina were exquisite. She awoke to my very slow, gentle movements with periods of stillness, and we had a beautiful interlude of 30 to 45 minutes.

    Many mornings we awake well-rested a half hour or more before the alarm clock, and have a nice space of time for conscious, gentle lovemaking that always sets the tone for the whole day. This morning we were more sleepy than usual, but we still spent a few minutes chest to chest, and then 10-15 minutes of PIV. We have missed only a couple of days (and her week out of town) without at least 10 minutes of PIV to start the day.

    Most of my entries have been soft, but as I continue to heal sexually, I am waking up more frequently with an erection , or I'm becoming erect shortly after entry. Soft entry is very easy for me when she parts her labia. Either way, whether erect entry or soft entry, walnut oil is our friend !! Soft entry with walnut oil is great because we are often very tired when we go to bed, and we can "plug in" without even a thought or worry about me having an erection or her being lubricated.

    For comfort, we fold a pillow in half and place it behind me for her to rest her feet on (so the full weight of her legs is not resting on my stomach or side while we're in the scissors position). She always lays with her back flat on the bed (because she probably couldn't sleep otherwise) and I turn my body to fit with hers. Tip: Use whatever pillows or props that you need. Get as comfortable as you possibly can if you plan to fall asleep with PIV.

    One day we went straight to the bedroom when I got home from work, got naked, and reviewed our day with each other as we lay very relaxed and joined together in scissors. One afternoon on a weekend we joined together scissors and read a spiritual book together for an hour or more. We have a deep reverence for our lovemaking, but, at the same time, we feel completely comfortable and at home in our bodies while making love. We have settled into a personal pattern that works very well for us, while we remain open to any adjustments we may see that we need as we continue to heal and respond to each other's opposite sexual polarity. We now have a sexual abundance that works very well for us without any of the common time crunch problems of fitting frequent lovemaking and sexual healing into our busy daily schedules.

  • The old idea that "having sex" was the best thing to do has gone. The wondrous fallacy of the orgasm has been shattered, and I now see that the old paradigm had very little to do with love. Penetration is not such a compelling essential, and too much genital friction takes us away from the gentle relaxation into the excitement zone. Been there too often before, and it goes nowhere! Sometimes it can seem like two people meditating together. It's similar in many ways. When I find my mind drifting away from the present and going into some story, I can just bring my awareness back to the moment, and the presence of my beloved. Only it's easier because the focus is more powerful and compelling. And I can feel my partner's response when she feels that I am in the moment with her. It becomes like drinking in her feminine essence and getting the warm fuzzy feel of the old oxytocin coming in. We seem to fall into breathing together easily. So its early days—only a couple of months together and we are taking it easy. Not living together and no big plans yet. At the moment it's easy, possibly aided by a few other [honeymoon] neurochemicals that are helping us enjoy each other. But neither does it feel like any kind of toxic high like I have had before. Less lust more love. Time will tell, we are both rather tired of all the failures of relationships we have had in our lives and would like this one to be long and enriching.
  • Our story: About 12 years ago a friend gave me a book called The Tao of Health, Sex, and Longevity." In the chapter on sex it recommend non-ejaculation for the man. I thought, "Mmm, sounds a little strange, but why not give it a try?" As my wife says, about things sexual, "I'll give anything a try, at least once." So there we were giving it a try, and somewhere right in the middle, after it had gone on longer than usual, we kind of looked at each other, like, "Ummm, when's it over?" Right there, on the spot, some big light bulbs went off in my head, like, "Ooh my god, I've been the one deciding when it's over all these years and never realized it. Wonder how she feels about that, down inside? Gee, given the chance, I wonder where she might go if I wasn't ending things?" I could sense right then that some new and wonderful possibilities were possible, and we were off on a new journey. Of course, it took a few weeks to break certain established patterns and ideas. My wife was concerned about whether she was satisfying me. It's interesting how orgasm is the mark of whether we are pleasuring our partners. As a male it was hard to have this new sort of goaless/directionless sex. "Where are we going here?" The male psyche likes direction. This was so amorphous, kind of floaty. Once we got over the shift to a new sexual paradigm, we never looked back. I could probably say for myself this may be the single most valuable discovery I have made in my entire life. It transformed my relationship with my wife. I never tire of her and pretty much can never get enough of her. Also, I appreciate and enjoy her feminine ways much more than when I was ejaculating. Women used to be a kind of aggravation in a way. I would fluctuate between the extremes of strong desire and "You're driving me nuts." Now, I feel like I drink in feminine energy wherever I go. The idea of orgasm is totally of no interest. It's hard to even remember that I use to like doing that. I feel much more rooted in my masculine being. A few years afterward my wife decided she wasn't interested in orgasming either. This took us to a whole other level. We pretty much engage in the karezza embrace every morning. We run our own business beside our house so getting up early for work is not necessary. At 55 my relationship with her, and our sex life, is better than ever. If anyone told me that with two teenage boys, a business, and 27 years being together, that I would be engaging sexually with my wife almost every day, I would never have believed them. Here's to karezza!! Finding your website has been like discovering a oasis. We could locate next to no one who has practiced, or would even consider, sex without orgasming. Seeing your article on karezza was like "Wow, this is exactly our experience." Simply naming and reading about what we, ourselves, had stumbled across by feel is very affirming and validating. My god, were not the only "kooks" out there who are taking such an aboutface around sexuality. Your explanation of Karezza read like a description from our own personal experiences. Knowing there are other couples having a similar experience as ourselves is wonderful. So often our enthusiasm for this way of sharing and expressing falls on deaf ears. It's great to find a place where this is not so. Also, we find that practicing karezza holds a kind of "space" where thoughts and feeling can percolate without pressure. On a somewhat regular basis we experience a sort of shift and resolve of "stuff" that may be a bit stuck. It can be anything from our relationship, to the kids, the business, or something entirely personal. After a karezza session we can be just lying there—and answers and resolutions to situations just "arrive," which is delightful. In fact, it sometimes happens right in the middle. We'll feel the energy shift when it happens, and simply stop to talk/share around what's going on. It's a gentle wonderful proccess. [To a forum member] Will it fade? From our experience, absolutely, unequivocally, no. It does not fade. In fact it grows and deepens. After 13 years it's still moving to new places. You know that feeling you mentioned of "can't get enough of her"? I still feel that way. There are still times where we get on each other's nerves of course, but it's infrequent and dissipates easily. As you guys settle in and trust the experience more, it becomes a very sweet flow of intimacy and affection. You'll discover places you didn't know were there. It's a delightful process.
  • I convinced my wife to try karezza gentle intercourse. It went fantastically! We managed to bond this way for a solid 15 minutes or so. When we were done--no orgasms--the glow of the connection lasted for days. By all accounts I had a new "convert" on my hands with my wife. [Months later] I am still amazed at how easy it is to simply "skip" the ejaculation part during intercourse. I don't miss it much at all. My wife is still very headstrong. She just simply "discovered" at my urging that this way feels pretty good, too. But, to be sure, since she and I now have this bonding act, things have calmed quite a bit.
  • Karreza has been transformative for our relationship. We have been doing it for the last 39 days, and we are much more physically affectionate, we are less tense, more sensitive and trusting, argue less, and are motivated to improve it even more. The act itself is highly pleasurable and satisfying once you both get good at it. It lasts as long as you want, and sometimes there are oxytocin rushes like a full body orgasm or warm blissful feeling. I got into it because not only am I rebooting, but she is taking a med that prevents orgasm, and this evens things out. She is also more interested in sex now, and we do this at least twice a week, whereas it was around twice a month regular sex before. She now gives me random "oral karreza" and sometimes we just cuddle with our middles touching. We touch every day now to some level because she is no longer afraid of "making me uncomfortable" or having to "fix it". I highly recommend giving karreza a shot.
  • We’ve been practicing love making without the goal of orgasm for well over a year now – in my case that means no attempt to reach ejaculation. What I’ve noticed is that now when I’m moving inside my wife I feel a gradual build up of the most delightful sensations and I often feel as though I’m actually having an orgasm. This feeling then gradually subsides and I don’t usually ejaculate, although this does happen from time to time. Afterwards I feel totally relaxed and extremely affectionate and experience no headaches (as sometimes happens if I ejaculate) and certainly no “hangover” or bad feelings. I also find that my erection often comes back almost immediately and I start to move again for a short while.

  • [Man in his 60s] My wife and I have different a variation of the karezza situation described throughout this site. I am a slow ejaculator – always have been, always will be. My wife has very low libido, hasn’t had an orgasm in several years, and is not at all interested in sex, but she loves cuddling and the other bonding behaviors. We have just discovered these concepts and are still experimenting with what works best for us. For years we worked and worked to get me to cum. Now with our modified karezza, we forget about the goal of orgasm, I give her long, loving caresses of all kinds and I get to have sex with her (even though the sex part is of little interest to her). I am having the best sex of my life; she has been relieved of a chore. We are both smiling all day and long into the night. The benefits of my new behavior are many. Most importantly, my wife and I are reconnected. We get along much better than before, both in the bedroom and everywhere else. Once I quit porn and quit the GOAL of orgasm during sex, my perception of her changed dramatically and almost immediately. She is again the love of my life, my best friend, my confidant and my sex partner. I have returned her to a pedestal and she loves it. Next, because I am not ejaculating as frequently, I don’t feel sexually depleted, my libido is stronger, and my erections are more frequent, firmer, and longer lasting. Also, I have expanded my definition of an orgasm. For me, the “traditional” or peak orgasm included about 15 seconds of intense pleasure accompanied by an ejaculation. They could only be achieved after an hour or so of vigorous stimulation – visual, manual, vaginal, oral or some combination. My “new” orgasms are mellow. I’ve only had three or four, but they have lasted from two to twenty minutes. They are more like a continuous group of waves of delicious pleasure in which time seems to stand still. I don’t want to let them become a goal of our lovemaking, or I’m afraid they won’t happen. I believe I just have to let them arrive when the conditions are right. There is no ejaculation of semen, but plenty of natural male lubricant. They are brought about by a period of gentle snuggling and caressing and fondling and loving conversation with my wife. No vigorous thrusting or gyrating. And a key for me seems to be to utterly ignore my own pleasure, and focus entirely on pleasuring my wife. Spending a lot of time in bonding behaviors is fundamental.
  • Last night after doing an exchange we made love (no orgasms, of course), and I dramatically experienced making love in a much more giving (and relaxed), as opposed to a taking, mentality.
  • When I started tyring karezza, it was like withdrawl:The first night was the worst - my testicles ached and I had a lot of trouble sleeping due to discomfort. Then it slowly subsided. Some of the techniques on dealing with "blue balls" I found on this site. Now 8 months later, I feel much calmer about sex, and more in control. My desire to look at porn has almost entirely evaporated. My wife and I just feel more "in sync".

    I don't get intense cravings for sex like I did in the past. But maybe its because I'm having so much more of it, and its so much better. Its like when you get in the habit of eating really good, healthy food - the cravings for junk diminish because you are receiving real nourishment.

    As far as speedy recovery after an orgasm, it seems that practicing the bonding behaviors (even when you don't feel like it!) really helps. Taking a walk and holding hands, foot massages, hair stroking, eye gazing, feeding, etc can kick start things again. At first you have to almost force yourself to do it, because after climax I generally do feel more distant. But after a day or so things get rekindles, and then it just comes naturally.

    I think once a week is definitely better than once a day. I was originally interested in going once per week due to the 7 day spike in testosterone level. I thought once a week might be optimal for keeping testosterone levels up.

    My wife an I are semi-karezzatic (did I invent a new word?) Over the past several months I've tried to keep my climaxes down to once every 30 days. We have sex usually every day, sometimes more than once. We only take a few days off around her period. But I'm now questioning the 30 day limit and thinking about going longer. It just seems to make life better!

  • Some observations

    1) I feel like once I get over the initial urge to ejaculate, it fades into the background. If sex always felt like it does in the first 10 minutes, no way I could keep it up for hours. But it is almost like once the sort of normal procreation time passes a different urge takes over and it is much much easier to stay in yellow or even orange areas.

    2) We have been doing a lot of meditations trying to turn sex energy into heart energy. Seems to work well for her, not as easy for me, but still useful.

    3) The benefits this time were so quick and easy to see. Yet I know I've gone multiple weeks without orgasm in the past without such benefits. There's a such a huge difference between not orgasming because you have no libido, and actively cultivating and increasing and using libido while just avoiding orgasm.

    4) It's now been 1.5 years since I've masturbated to porn. I still have no desire to do so at all.

    5) I get erections very easily. Like being 15 again. Even just the smell of my partner walking past me in the room can bring a partial erection.

    6) I can still feel a difference between more edgy play and less edgy play. More edgy play often leaves me wanting sex less the next day and also grumpier in the morning, not always a bad tradeoff as it fased pretty quickly, but less edgy play definitely keeps a flow going. There is still an ebb and flow day to day and throughout the days though.

  • My wife and I both get into this trance-like state almost every time we have sex. An hour could feel like ten or twenty minutes have passed. She calls it her "dreamy" state. I would imagine if one person were experiencing this it would feel lonely, but if both are ... WOW

  • Giving up ejaculatory orgasms was the best thing I ever did for me, my wife, and our relationship. Since I became non-orgasmic my wife has taken advantage of having me always “available” and “ready” to fully explore her own sexuality and has blossomed like a flower and become incredibly vibrant, sensual and more beautiful than ever. Since my male orgasm is no longer the goal of our lovemaking, we have been experimenting and engaging in much more relaxed Karrezza like sensual activities but my wife finds the combination of high energy combined with the relaxed state all but impossible to resist and is having more orgasms than ever. Right now we are looking to integrate my “Tantric Waves of Bliss” into an extended karezza like experience in such a way that we both receive maximum pleasure at the same time. Yes, I know that pure "karezza" is all about avoidance of orgasm but we no longer focus on orgasm - we focus on the "pleasure." I am not going to have an orgasm anyway, and if the wife still does in the context of relaxed, non-goal oriented activities—then so be it.
  • Beyond the sexual pleasure for me it's about the connection, totally. When she is completely there and tuned in, it's like a glorious dance, I'm deep inside her, our eyes meet completely, we respond to each others (small) movements, and it's like how little movement can create the biggest connectedness and resonance. There's no way i would trade the feeling when we are both tuned in. Wouldn't trade that for anything. If my beloved isnt really tuned in on a given session, my erection inevitably subsides, and that is the end of the dance. In that moment i don't lament the loss of pleasure but the loss of connection and presence.
  • We are at a point with our love-making where we can find positions and movements that feel good without escalating to the point of orgasm. As a man, I feel that because my partner isn't "expecting" me to orgasm it feels very releiving, and allows me to stop when I need to etc. There is sort of a loving respect associated with how we can receive and give pleasure without getting lost in it. We can tell if the other is losing him/herself by what our eyes are doing. If we are open and loving toward each other, then we are "with" each other and gazing into each others eyes. if we are starting to lose ourselves in our own pleasure, then our eyes are closing/closed, and we are getting out of our conscious awareness.
  • Last night on day 23 no masturbation to porn, I had sex with girlfriend. It was amazing, there was no pressure for me to orgasm. I had a rock hard erection, although a little trouble at first. We screwed for about an hour. It was all about her needs. The end result was just as satisfying as if I had an orgasm. I had absolutly no Blue Balls today, when i woke up. There was no imagery as we did it. I looked down once for a secound, then decided it was wrong, and changed my focus. I truly believe this is the first time I made love to a woman. It was not just unconnected hardcore sex. After all we did I have no sexual frustrations what so ever, although I do have alot of sexual energy right now. This is the best journey I've chosen for my life.
  • Karezza has been really nice. We've now had five karezza sessions. I've been keeping in mind "sensation vs. stimulation" and intending to notice the difference. Sometimes my mind rushes into "stimulation mode" and I have to make the conscious effort to slow down. Being open to sensation is a completely different experience. I have to be present, present to every touch. When I'm present to every touch, each one can feel amazing, as if my body is vibrating and completely sensitive to even the lightest strokes. When I go into "stimulation mode," it's as if "I'm not there." My mind is in anticipation mode, never really feeling what's going on in the present moment. It's a state of frustration, looking for relief. So, I want to carry on learning to be present in order to feel and experience every touch fully. I find that being present is parallel to slowing down. When I'm present, I'm automatically slowing down, and when I consciously choose to slow down, I become more present. Our relationship has changed in the past 2 weeks. I feel more connected with her. When I say connected, I mean, appreciative, grateful, happy, and in love. I see how sex with the goal of orgasm can have such a big effect on the relationship. The way I lose interest in her after having an orgasm. Before, when this would happen, I would recognize it and make the effort to be attentive and appreciative. However, underneath there was still the same feeling - tired and not entirely interested... disconnected, is the word. Now, with karezza, it's like the same feelings of appreciation and happiness spill over after the karezza session. I don't lose connection. This morning, I woke up, naked with her, and I felt that being naked with a woman, cuddling and caressing with warm bodies, is the greatest feeling. The feeling of love and being loved is so nice. It beats porn use by a zillion! So yeah, it's nice to see positive changes in the relationship, and my own sense of personal well-being.
  • Our exploration of karezza has been like a rebirth in our relationship. We have been together for 20 years, but the last few weeks have been like finding light at the end of a long dark tunnel. It is really cool. In the past, between encounters I would look for a way to try to relieve the build-up sexual tension. This usually led to me fondling myself and ultimately masturbation and orgasm. Now this energy can take a totally different direction. I really have no desire to self-satisfy. Instead, I think about our Karezza experiences and that energy seems to re-distribute throughout my entire body. I particularly notice the flow of energy to my lips and chest and heart. It's a warm full feeling that feels really nice. I'm just floored by the fact that for 30 years I've been pursuing orgasm as the goal toward sexual satisfaction and contentment and I never knew that it was a false promise. Our society (and to some degree our biological programming) really does a number on us. This past weekend I found myself in a constant state of wonder during our lovemaking, and I found myself repeatedly saying to myself on multiple occasions, "I'll be damned!" (Not literally of course, to the contrary I feel really blessed).
  • Recap: It's maybe been 3 or 4 weeks without any PMO and I've been doing karezza with my wife for a short while. (I used a lot of erotica in the past; mostly erotic stories.) I went through a period of maybe 2 weeks when this first started, when I was very horny and had a great urgency and felt great pressure around sex. It is different now. The more time I spend with my beautiful wife even without orgasm the more thrilled I am and I don't feel that horny urgency anymore. I feel a dreamy kind of in-love feeling all the time, a love drunkenness that is not so much in my penis if that makes sense. I have an amazing reaction when my wife touches me now. Even holding hands is an amazing experience. Any skin to skin contact is incredible. My sexual response is all over my body now and not focused so much in my gonads. About other women I used to not be able to help almost ogling a beautiful woman in a bathing suit but now I notice them of course but my feeling about looking at them is different. It's not the horndog kind of look anymore and I don't ogle them the same way. It feels very different. Different feelings in my penis I get spontaneous erections or half erections but I just ignore them and they go away. I have resisted any desire to edge or touch my penis. It hasn't been difficult. I have felt far less focused on my penis than ever before somehow. This love feeling that I have is more a bodily sensation than a genital one. But my penis feels a warmth and a presence there that wasn't there before. It feels more melting and ecstatic somehow. When we go to bed we cuddle a lot which has been several times a day. Eventually quite often my wife offers herself even though I have been very clear that she doesn't have to. Sometimes I am hard, sometimes not, but it doesn't matter at all. She has started to have more frequent orgasms for some reason. And being inside her is just unbelievable but not in an intense go-at-it way. I could be there all day although she isn't at the point where she would want me to. There is nothing that holds a candle to this in my life. Nothing ever has. I could never believe this type of feeling exists. It has changed my feelings about everything. If all I ever had in life was this, it would all have been worth it. I hope you give it a chance too. Simply decide not to orgasm with your love and go slow and do a lot of the bonding stuff. I hope you can realize this state, as nobody ever told me it existed. If you get there you will find your whole world is utterly different. At least that's my experience so far. As far as my behavior is concerned, I find I am much more solicitous. I always was solicitous but sometimes would hide my feeling of irritation, say, if my wife didn't get something with her computer that I felt was simple. Not anymore. I am thrilled to help her now and don't feel that frustration or irritation much at all. I feel like I can't do enough for her. I also feel much more patience with other people. I feel much more personal power and competence. I am in a high profile business that I run and there seems to be a power and ability that courses through me, an energy that is undeniable. But also light. I laugh a lot more even than I used to and I go around with a smile on my face a lot. Who wouldn't? My wife and I are Karezza newbies and yesterday I wanted to report something really fun. We were holding hands on the beach and I could feel energy from her hands going into my body and I had this mini orgasm for a period just walking on the beach. It was pretty cool. I didn't have a full on erection but my penis was a bit full, nothing embarrassing and I wasn't in my mini Speedo either fortunately. Anyway, this is all pretty cool stuff. It's such an amazing turn-on. Karezza has brought me so much more pleasure and happiness than I dreamed possible. And it never stops. I also think there are other benefits of plenty and wealth that I think Karezza brings. It creates relaxation and lets me sublimate my sexual energy into productive wealth building while relaxing and letting the Universe flow to me.
  • [Talking about attraction to wife on forum] it's the Karezza brain. You know, I would have bet my next 100 orgasms that going two weeks without orgasm would do absolutely nothing but make me miserable. But this sub-thread led me to Reuniting.info, and I will tell you that since I've been practicing Karezza, my woman (even after two decades of waking up next to her) is delicious to me! :) Ironically, and sadly, the idea is caressing (and many other bonding behaviors -- including penile-vaginal-intercourse) but on a slow and steady burn that ends up NOT causing orgasms in either partner. {I say sadly because no matter what the benefits, giving up orgasms sucks.} By avoiding orgasm, one avoids the flood of primal chemicals that drive us to satisfy ourselves with our current mate and then drive us away from her/him to try to mix our genes with another mate. It truly makes you feel like you're in the first few weeks of a new relationship even if you've been with her for years. As an added benefit, you're clear headed, confident, and (I believe) many of the benefits claimed by nofappers are actually gained through fewer orgasms -- so most of those benefits too. Finally, this Karezza behavior triggers something else primal in us... the urge to bond. As you bond you overlook faults, and look at the person you're bonded to with rose colored glasses. (Ever notice how parents of ugly babies think they're beautiful?) This bonding will make you think your mate is way more beautiful and sexy than s/he really is. (Just like if you look at old pics of old gf's you don't think she is nearly as pretty as you remember.) Except if you stay bonded you will always think of her that way. Man, for people looking for clear headed inspiration and/or relationship success... this is da bomb!

  • After the first two or three weeks things were noticeably better between us. It got better with time. Just being on the same page, sexually,has made the biggest difference. All the performance pressures being gone, our lovemaking turned into bonding as I am sure you have read about on this site. Karezza has so many healing qualities, I couldn't even begin to list them all.

  • We practice karezza since some months, and miracles are happening in our lives. My wife is no longer hysterical, and she is no longer becoming a " witch". After so many years, I again like to kiss her on her mouth. I don't become as angry and aggressive with her and my son. I stay much cooler and calmer. She loves karezza verry much, and i love it also. There is no problem for us to not have a orgasm during karezza.
  • My wife and I have been forever changed by your work. Our love life has not been the same for this last year and I don't see being able to go back. Even with an intentional change to something "hotter" we both feel "flat" afterwards. Its like the difference of burning fuel and not having anything left vs. being a catalyst for a deep "something" to grow and widen until the next "Connection".

    In short Thank You. This is still blowing my mind. It all seems so counter intuitive. It turns other aspects of life on its head. Like meditation, more is found in less.

  • What my wife and I have discovered the past year is that during lovemaking we feel like we become each others sex god/goddess! It sounds silly talking about it, but at the moment its what we feel and we tell each other such.

    I was hooked on porn for 35 years and experienced orgasms while looking at and fantasizing about many thousands of model perfect women. It certainly effected the way I perceived the beauty of my wife, since it is natural to compare. Since discovering the concept of Karezza, I found that I lost most of my interest in porn. (I say most because a part of me is still curious about it, but not enough to actually pursue it). Now when I'm making love with my wife I find myself fascinated by every square inch of her 43 year old, mother of 3 body! The so-called imperfections become character marks, and every blemish and wrinkle is a delight, and this sincere acceptance of her body just feeds into the wonderful energy in which we are enveloped.

    Not allowing frequent orgasm to sabotage my fascination with her has allowed my brain to redefine what a perfect body is. My definition of perfect is those things that are unique to her, including all her so-called "flaws". Those things are the good stuff! Here's a quote from the movie Good Will Hunting:

    Quote:

    “Sean: My wife used to fart when she was nervous. She had all sorts of wonderful little idiosyncrasies. She used to fart in her sleep. I thought I’d share that with you. One night it was so loud it woke the dog up. She woke up and went ‘ah was that you?’ And I didn’t have the heart to tell her. Oh!
    Will: She woke herself up?
    Sean: Ah...! But Will, she’s been dead for 2 years, and that's the shit I remember: wonderful stuff you know? Little things like that. Those are the things I miss the most. The little idiosyncrasies that only I know about: that's what made her my wife. Oh she had the goods on me too, she knew all my little peccadilloes. People call these things imperfections, but they're not. Ah, that's the good stuff.

    The fact that your lover doesn't fit the Hollywood stereotyped formula for what beauty is irrelevant when you are in Love.

  • [African] I've gotten myself a fiancee who I'll be marrying in a couple of months. She never heard of karezza, but when I told her about it, she embraced it wholeheartedly. Honestly, I was taken aback by her readiness to learn everything about it. We've been practicing the ideas for almost a year now. For what I could remember, it was only twice that we mistakenly became unconscious of what we were doing and therefore spill the semen.However, everything is good between us. We wake up each morning with renewed affection. No other woman attracts me anymore, no matter how more beautiful she is. The urge to go after another lady ceases to be. We're so happy, and financially, all's well. At least we can cater for our needs comfortably. So far, so good; life's generosity keeps smiling on us.
  • I used to be confused by some of the erotic carvings on temples in India. I took them to be 'stills' of what would, in motion, surely have to be vigorous, which made them seem precarious, uncomfortable and unrealistic. What I've discovered is, even the most unpromising position, if stayed in for long enough, when static - that is, neutral - but with full, rapt attention, can be enthralling. [See this slow-motion pas-de-deux.]
  • (sender)

    We are firmly on this path. My wife told me that karezza is her new spiritual path! We've had a number of wonderful love-making sessions. We don't call it having sex anymore; we call it making love. That felt a little awkward at first, but now it feels right. Sometimes I find myself feeling totally in the moment and just channeling love through my hands and penis (which she tells me she can feel). Other times, I find the old "fucking" program lurking about. Old habits die hard. And I am just regaining sensitivity in my penis (and everywhere else); that will take time, and I'm ok with that. It's helpful to hear how others describe their path, speed bumps and all.

    The other morning, after an hour and a half of beautiful lovemaking the night before, she told me she dreamed of rockets. During the next evening's lovemaking, she had a surprise orgasm and had nightmares that night.

    Yesterday she told me that she never wants to have another orgasm! And I feel the same way. Of course, there is still the part of me that wants that concentrated explosion of pleasure, but that thought is quickly extinguished by the awareness of how fleeting that experience is, how unpleasant the resulting hangover is, and, oh yeah...let's not forget all that amazing PIV time. And also there are these highly pleasant feelings I have almost all the time now. My wife describes it as this full feeling; like she's somewhat engorged all day (in a nice way). When we come together during the day during normal activities, like doing dishes or whatever, I can just come up to her, our bodies meet, there is a brief embrace, maybe a soft kiss on the neck or the lips. I can feel the warmth pouring from her heart into mine and circulating around my pelvic area; all without feeling the need to do anything about it; just to be able to have those moments of pure connection throughout the day. This is something I've always wanted to share with her but could never achieve until now. I love it; it's so beautiful. She is so beautiful.

    I told her that I used to feel as though I was walking on eggshells most of the time; that it was hard sometimes to figure out when was a good time to talk to her as I would often get a somewhat hostile reaction. But lately she has been very approachable. The edge in her voice has been replace by a calm, soothing tone. Her impatient wide-eyed expression has been replaced by soft, gentle eyes. The eggshells have gone. In their place, there is this warm feeling. I think we've gone from being [unintentional] adversaries to being partners.

    I don't think that this style of lovemaking actually manufactures our good feelings towards each other. I think they were there all along, but were being attenuated or even suppressed by the constant orgasm fallout. Now it feels more like when we were first falling in love; looking forward to our time together, thinking about each other throughout the day and so forth. I also think that releasing expectations and loving selflessly has also helped to restore trust. I think we made such quick progress because we spent the first couple of weeks with just gentle touching which helped to build the trust (her words). Fortunately for us, there wasn't much healing to do because it only took a couple of weeks. We are both enjoying this journey so much. I'd say that we're looking forward to finding out where it leads, but truthfully, we're just too busy enjoying what's happening right now... smiley

  • I have enjoyed learning to not ejaculate.  I am feeling better and can enjoy intimacy with my wife more often.  My non ejaculatory orgasms are wonderful and sometimes burst out laughing during the orgasm such a wonderful release and feeling.  I don't feel any negative effects after this kind of orgasm and I will continue to be aware of what is happening in my body.  My experience started with learning how to relax.  Then after I learned to relax then I learned to feel.  I just relaxed and felt the various parts of my body it was an amazing realization.   After that the nonejaculatory orgasms seem to come naturally.  It was very interesting.  Your book gave me the confidence that it was okay not to ejaculate.  It took awhile to figure out how to stop the intimate time with my wife - in the past the ejaculation completed the intimate time together.  It is still an on going learning experience which will go on for a long, long time.
  • (pianoluvr) I'm finding that I'm not craving orgasms like I used to. This is actually a relief. I think the months of practice has conditioned me to feel more comfortable not experiencing that release. Before we started this lifestyle, I would have thought it impossible to have sex and then go to sleep without coming. But now its normal and no big deal. Its amazing how the body adapts if you give it a chance!

    When I first started my "orgasm every 30 day" plan I could hardly wait for that 30th day! It was easy to kind of obsess about it. Now i'm feeling more relaxed about it, and am thinking about going a longer interval.

    What I'm interested in the next several weeks is to explore a greater interval without getting so close to the edge of orgasm. I'm feeling less inclined to push the sexual intensity up toward 8 or 9 (10 being the orgasm, of course!) and exploring the 6-7 range.

[LATER POST] At this point, we are about 20 months into this practice and it has been an amazing life-changing experience. We are more the "hot" type, although we enjoy the variety. One of the most beneficial things we have learned is how her monthly cycle affects our sex life. We usually calm things down during her period. After that she goes into her fertile period when she is "hot to trot"! We only use condoms as birth control, and it's fun because I can last so long with one and we can get really vigorous - which she loves during this time of the month. Once her fertile period is over, we enter our next phase. She cools down a bit, but losing the condom makes this time awesome too. That first sex of the month without the condom is always awesome and something we look forward to.

  • Best of luck finding what works for you guys. It's a journey of exploration for sure. I wouldn't get too hung up on "rules".

  • Putting our chests together helps us to get on the same page with our sexual energy, and tunes us in to each other, very quickly. We now often fall asleep with our chests together and our arms wrapped around each other. After we have rested this way for a few hours, I will often wake up with an erection. With a few sweet words from me, my beloved will roll over on her other side, and we will join together as Spoons. (She usually puts a small dab or two of walnut oil on her inner labia right before she goes to bed, and it provides adequate lubrication when we join together 3 to 5 hours later. Spooning with PIV is the most relaxing for both of us, and our personal hands-down favorite. We will now once in a while fall asleep in Scissors - when we first started PIV, we fell asleep almost every night in Scissors. Missionary (with her legs in the air) is also a position we continue to enjoy a lot and use frequently.

    A typical night might look like the following: My beloved goes to bed at 10pm. I follow her to bed 1 1/2 to 2 hours later. When I get into bed on the left, I lay on my left side and slide my left arm under her pillow. With a soft word or touch from me, she gently turns toward me and presses her chest against mine and we nestle our legs together loosely. We may kiss for a few moments, and then both tilt our heads back comfortably on our pillows to give each other a little space for breathing. Then we both usually fall to sleep within moments. I often wake up around 4 to 4:30am with enough of an erection to easily enter her while spooning. She turns over on to her other side, we join, and I'll make slow gentle movements (for varying lengths of time) and often fall back asleep inside her. One night I awoke with an erection about 2am, and we made love 3 or 4 times between 2am and 6am (each time we made love for 10 to 15 minutes, and fell back to sleep for 45 to 50 minutes). The next morning we both woke up completely rested and refreshed.

    On the early mornings that I don't have an erection, we will put our chests together to awaken our polarities, an erection will often happen, and we'll join together as Spoons. If an erection still doesn't happen, she (with my help) will put her legs in the air, and I can easily insert the head of my penis in her vagina, even when I'm completely soft; she will start to lubricate, a little movement of my penis for a few minutes will produce an erection and she will lubricate even more. We can then easily change over to spooning after I'm erect and she's well lubricated. One morning we had PIV Missionary (with her legs in the air) and we wanted to change over to spooning. Once our polarities were awakened they were very much awake!! I had a firm erection. Without any words or prior discussion, she slowly and very gracefully turned from her back with her legs in the air on to her left side with her legs on the bed, while in the same few moments, I slowly turned from being on my knees in front of her vagina to laying on my left side behind her, all the while joined together. It was a beautiful moment in time that neither of us planned, done as gracefully as if we had practiced it a hundred times.

    Recently my beloved has wanted to catch up on some important reading she has neglected for a while, but she didn't want to take away from our time together. What to do? We talked it over. I can easily sleep with the light on. Some mornings she wakes up at about 5am, turns the night table lamp on, we quickly and easily join together as Scissors, and I close my eyes and sometimes fall back to sleep till the alarm goes off at 6am, while she gets a good hour of reading in while her mind is fresh.

  • I've been in a relationship with my girlfriend for almost a year. The relationship was quite challenging for a number of months -- we would argue and I would often feel irritated with her. The arguments were frequent and the relationship was up and down like a rollarcoaster. It could shift in an instant into unhappiness and conflict. Overall, I was unhappy. I started to realized I was experiencing this strange general resistance towards my girlfriend that I couldn't put words to and out of that energy field arose irritation, impatience, and basically cold feelings towards her. Ioften felt like she was a 'stranger'.

    About two months ago, I was reintroduced to reuniting.info by a friend. I remembered my experiences with karezza in a relationship I was in a couple of years ago and how powerful those experiences were. I'd almost forgotton about it all. I decided to stop having orgasm, and reintroduced myself to the concepts presented here on reuniting, regarding the limbic system and other parts of the brain. It was fascinating to me to go through these concepts again and see how they seemed to be true in my direct experience. In particular, perhaps these were answers to the general resistance that I couldn't put words to.

    In the first month, nothing seemed to change. However, since about the fourth week of no orgasm and practicing karezza with my girlfriend, I've experienced increasingly loving and warm and safe and close feelings with my girlfriend. It's really refreshing and I know that this is the feeling I want with the woman I choose to be with. Seems that these are the effects of more oxytocin and less dopamine surges in the limbic system. It is fascining to me how it took about a month to start changing, indicating that it takes around that time for the brain to 'reset'.

  • Connecting

    I took my clothes off and we kissed, cuddled, stroked. I remember putting my hand on her vagina on top of her panties. At first you could see her heating up but I just left it there for a minute or so as we tenderly kissed. My intent was not to make her horny, just to comfort. She later did a similar thing to my penis. I find it strange how clearly we read the intentions of touch. It's very subtle yet we seem to easily grasp the motivation.

    We both took off our underwear and connected. Hardly moving, but deep inside. Earlier in the day I had been re-reading 'Tantric Sex for Men' and I finally understood what they meant by the penis growing and searching as if having a life of it's own; snake like. I felt her vagina responding, contracting and releasing, welcoming me in. When we used to have hot and heavy sex she would get so wet that I actually wouldn't feel much. This was different. I've never experienced her vagina so intimately.

    We would kiss lots, cuddle, and shared these intense long gazes. I would smile at her and seeing her smile back filled me with joy. She was radiating femininity, she looked absolutely beautiful. I was overwhelmed by her. I asked her a couple of times if she was ok. Coming from orgasm, goal orientated sex, initially Karezza / Tantra seems to be missing a clear feedback loop. The first time she uttered a few words, another time there was just this intense look on her face and a nod. I remember myself replying with a nod when she asked me. I didn't seem to need words.

    Energy flow

    I remember this energy flowing around my body. A state of bliss. She gently asked me to 'fuck her slowly'. I stayed deep inside and we lightly moved our bodies. She got more excited but never pushed over the edge. She looked so goddamm cute. Afterwards she explained it was like a 20 minute orgasm without having an orgasm.

    Her body was super sensitive afterwards, but not in the usual 'you can't touch me anymore because I am too turned on' whilst closing legs to show her pussy is now out of bounds way. It was just this energy shooting around her. Like an endorphin high. I felt the same and still feel it now, the morning after. Like my body feels alive and buzzing. It's so strange. I'm sitting here smiling. I feel like a little kid.

    I would of liked to know how long we stayed connected for. I think 30 minutes but it could of been longer. I remarked that you could just stay like that for hours. She asked me 'Why did we never have sex like this before?'. I replied that I had never had sex with anyone like this.

    Left hard, no need for orgasm

    I left semi hard and we lay together. She asked me if I wanted to cum and I said, with completely honesty, that I didn't see the point or a need. I had finished sex in a state of complete relaxation. Ejaculation would just wear me out and leave me exhausted which didn't seem worth it for a 3 second high. Neither of us had an orgasm and both felt perfectly satisfied.

    As we lay together our bodies buzzing we both looked at each other and said 'Wow", "What just happened?", "What was that?". It was like nothing I have experienced before. Transcendental.

    An equal experience

    Because neither person is dominant it becomes a mutual experience. She told me that even when I was on top towering over her it felt like we were equal in the experience. That's just the position we happened to be in at that moment. For me it felt great to leave aggression out of sex. I was relaxed instead of heated up.

    I didn't have to worry about ejaculating. There is no performance. Normally it's a juggling act between stimulating her more whilst keeping myself for falling over the edge into orgasm; which marks the end of the experience for me. That takes a lot of concentration and thought. I also normally engage in fantasy talk. My tantra book explained that using fantasy in sex is moving the experience into your mind and out of the present moment. That makes total sense.

    I thought staying so still would be boring. But It wasn't. Without a goal what do you do? Where do you go? You just are. I felt so present. My world was her. Connecting and being in this moment. My attraction to her has increased so much because of these experiences. I totally dig how open-minded she has been. The fact that she respected me enough to give this a go. I see my life as a grand learning experience. I'm a pragmatist. It's awesome that she is a part of this. That we are experimenting and learning together and from each other. She challenges me and my thinking. I hers. Mutual growth.

 

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