The link between porn and karezza

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Submitted by Rachel on
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Where and how the two worlds collide:

Man suffers from porn addiction

Man successfully reboots by avoiding all porn and masturbation

Man successfully revives his lagging penis! (yay! happy dancing!)

Man gets so excited about penis he wants to use it all the time!

Man "fertilizes" girlfriend many, many times!

Man notices girlfriend is not as exciting as she used to be

Man loses girlfriend due to "emotional drama" (which is actually orgasm-related, unbeknownst to him)

Man is sad

Man is lonely

Man decides to look at porn to help with loneliness

Man is right back where he started

THE END

Moral of the story: Have fun with your penis, but hold the mayo! Smile

Or woman wises up and skips

Or woman wises up and skips that emotional drama. I notice you focused on the male perspective, but the woman in the story seems to be the source of the drama. The man only noticed her lack of excitement.

What about focusing on mutual resolution to sadness and loneliness on the back end of the cycle?

Freedom

The woman is not the source of the drama, the post-orgasmic fall-out is~~and the man doesn't think she's *sexually* as exciting after fertilizing her so many times (guess I should have been clearer about that).

It's just a little parable and not supposed to be the solution to all the problems of men and women! Just something I noticed here since we have so very many *men* on this forum who are recovering from porn! They go from the frying pan to the fire sometimes and I don't want to see them crash and burn again~~

Love and peace,

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

I get it. I'm thinking ahead

I get it. I'm thinking ahead to version 2.0 with an alternate ending. The fallout is just a biological ride. The source of drama is both partners' response. Perhaps this hasn't been studied closely enough to know of alternate, faster routes from fallout to harmony. When the world provides a partner, the experimentation shall begin.

:-)

[quote=freedom]When the world provides a partner, the experimentation shall begin.[/quote]

YAY!!!!! You will be an *excellent* research scientist, Freedom!

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

The fastest route is ..

staying present and in the moment. Skipping ahead to the next thing is what takes us away from the experience of now.

Quizure

Goddesses like inspiring men to conquer dragons.
-Marnia

thank you for mentioning

Thank you for mentioning this Rachel, I've been thinking about it everytime I read a post about "Halleluja, my penis is functioning again".
Me as a woman, I feel objectified reading about guys praising their orgasmic sexlife "had the chance to have sex three times" or "I like sex with real girls now".
WHO is this, "girls"??? Is this a person?? Is this somebody to love? Is sex about love?

I'm kinda disappointed, angry and sad about it, what about Karezza and selfless giving?
What is the meaning of life? A functioning penis? and having sex with "girls"? I can't see SO much difference to porn-use... you can switch to girl-use...

I would feel so much better if the goal would be real love and relationship... possible?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swyqoRR4uCg&feature=related

*sigh* Sad

Not all guys out here have that goal

I completely understand your comment. It is tough for me to see guys recover and then start having mad sex and go down the road of Rachel's post.

I'm a guy and on your side. I HATED always looking at women in a sexual way. They are so warm and full of so much emotion that I really like getting to know them as good friends. Porn really messes the brain up in how men relate to women and I think that trying marathon sex can walk you back down that same road.

I was lucky enough to have a wife that wanted to try karezza and has absolutely loved it. She seems like 20 years ago in her openness and comfort to touch and warmth. But I was lucky to get great help on this forum and lucky that I took the advice seriously and experimented with it. Not everyone will be as fortunate as I have been.

If I were 20 years old, I'm not sure I would have been able to make these changes thanks to the peer pressure and how casual sex is portrayed.

Totally agree

There's an obsession with erection (and sexual conquests) as a means of gaining self esteem. Something else that we are taught by society.

Fleur Rare -

From what I have read of the few post that I have seen of yours here at Reuniting, you come across as a very intelligent woman who possesses valuable insight into area of love, sex and relationships and how these all work together. I would encourage you to share those great insights with all those younger guys who come here and don't seem to have a clue when it comes to understanding the true meaning to winning a womans heart first - all they're really concerned about is how quickly can I get my weiner to work again, and who is easily accessible so that I can see if it still works or not. We can't get the cart ahead of the horse. It's developing and nurturing the relationship first ... and that takes time ... sometimes lots of time. Then comes the sex - as a result of the great relationship you have developed with your beloved.

These guys need to hear you good insights! Please share them! You'd be giving them a great gift.

pcb

And it's more complex to go

And it's more complex to go about things the old fashioned way. You can't afford to invest lots of time into maybe relationships when you only control half the direction. At times, you have to juggle multiple undefined relationships that could at any moment diverge between friend and romantic partner. Confusing feelings can creep in, but it seems more fun because of the genuine connection with multiple people. I'm not attached to the outcome with any one person, but the point is to develop some connection or keep looking for another one. In some ways, it feels like the competition is actually fiercer when you know people well. I can sense that guys not hooked to porn are in short supply and women are frustrated. Sex will come to those who wait. Just form connections by sharing life.

I've got to get ready for

I've got to get ready for something tomorrow, but perhaps one of us should start a thread on old fashioned courting for the modern world. I'm curious what the women have to say about it. My experience is women love this, often more than they would have expected. Where's their self-esteem? I don't have to be thinking about sex with them to take a walk in the park. And why act confused if I'm ok running an errand with them. You can learn much about a human by running errands together. There should be errand dates. Some of his and some of her errands.

Ugh

[quote]What is the meaning of life? A functioning penis?[/quote]
To the majority of this group, it'd appear so!

I have to admit, I've never before in my life seen a community more obsessed with penii (why is Chrome spell-check saying that's incorrect -_-), and with whether or not its members can harden their member EVER AGAAAAAIIIN OH NOES ;_; It's kind of pathetic and embarrassing, actually. And maybe a little funny when the women, like Rachel, here start up going on about them too like they're freaking magic wands or something. But mostly pathetic and embarrassing.

"Hello new friend, my name is Fred! The words you hear are in my head.
I say, I said, my name is Fred! And I've been... very nauuughtyyy..."

A forum at last. Sex is

A forum at last. Sex is overly under the rug. We're not sex open. Perhaps we just have keys to what used to be a double locked box. If anything is said, it usually comes out in humor. That's considered acceptable, but perhaps that is pathetic and embarrassing. Here, it comes out as a serious expression of human hope, wants, needs, hurts, etc. Are you as bothered by the daily media bombardment, little of which reflects any human need? It might be nice to know the stock market value by the second, but money isn't a human need. It might be nice to know the latest political nonsense, but again, not a need. When media actually talks about a human need, they usually talk about someone else's need somewhere else so viewers can ride an emotional wave in their secure bubble. Meanwhile, many men and women are thinking what they are saying here. As they gulp down who knows what unhealthy food to mask their oppression, their subconscious is wondering when they can get a moment to express one need and if anyone will listen. Some say we're free.

Ignorance

[quote]A forum at last. Sex is overly under the rug. We're not sex open. Perhaps we just have keys to what used to be a double locked box. If anything is said, it usually comes out in humor. That's considered acceptable, but perhaps that is pathetic and embarrassing. Here, it comes out as a serious expression of human hope, wants, needs, hurts, etc.[/quote]
Oh yeah, they're all serious as hell and plunged into the blackest despair... over their barely-functioning boners. I have sympathy for that part of us, to be sure, but more for its sheer ignorance of the causes of its own suffering (or all the other ways it suffers that are actually far more important) than the suffering itself.

[quote]Are you as bothered by the daily media bombardment, little of which reflects any human need?[/quote]
Honestly? Yes. It can feel a bit overwhelming at times, even for the things I want to keep up with (which are definitely not the stock market or the latest political nonsense).

[quote]Meanwhile, many men and women are thinking what they are saying here.[/quote]
The men could do a bit more thinking before they speak. They're embarrassing our gender.

"Hello new friend, my name is Fred! The words you hear are in my head.
I say, I said, my name is Fred! And I've been... very nauuughtyyy..."

I've been on their case too

I've been on their case too about ED obsession and expecting miraculous, quick cures that allow them to function like male doped porn stars. They will come around eventually through their own path of healing. Perhaps they will get sick of things not working like they perceived.

Women have come to expect performance. Males are consciously and subconsciously made to think size is relevant in some way. Some of these guys have had particularly bad experiences that have reinforced anxieties around erection and sex. They are expressing a need in the language they know. They are perfect candidates for a patient, loving female partner willing to temporarily set her needs aside to help them heal. It's not clear why you find this embarrassing to males. Can you elaborate? What's triggering this feeling in you?

Encourage/praise/reward the behavior you want to see

Here's an article that Marnia posted: http://www.reuniting.info/science/what_shamu_taught_me_about_happy_marriage

Overcoming Porn addiction and recovery from ED, and the other strains of the years of experience lost to porn are the first steps. There will be other steps, and things to learn, but it's not a straight path, and growth is rarely linear. I was a wild woman in my 20's and 30's. But I got better!

Quizure

fleur_rare

I just read this and thought you might enjoy it, as I did:

"Compassion is the purest form of love. Sex is the lowest form of love, compassion the highest form of love. In sex the contact is basically physical; in compassion the contact is basically spiritual. In love, compassion and sex are both mixed, the physical and the spiritual are both mixed. Love is midway between sex and compassion.

When you have a sexual relationship with somebody, you have reduced that somebody to a thing. And in reducing him you have reduced yourself also to a thing, because it is a mutual compromise that “I allow you to reduce me to a thing, you allow me to reduce you to a thing. I allow you to use me, you allow me to use you. We use each other. We both have become things.”

That’s why...watch two lovers: when they have not yet settled. the romance is still alive, the honeymoon has not ended and you will see two persons throbbing with life, ready to explode — ready to explode the unknown. And then watch a married couple, the husband and the wife, and you will see two dead things, two graveyards, side by side — helping each other to remain dead, forcing each other to remain dead. That is the constant conflict of the marriage. Nobody wants to be reduced to a thing!

Sex is the lowest form of that energy “X.” If you are religious, call it “God”; if you are scientific, call it “X.” This energy, X, can become love. When it becomes love, then you start respecting the other person. Yes. sometimes you use the other person, but you feel thankful for it. You never say thank-you to a thing. When you are in love with a woman and you make love to her, you say thank-you.

In love, there is gratitude, there is a deep gratefulness. You know that the other is not a thing. You know that the other has a grandeur, a personality, a soul, an individuality. In love you give total freedom to the other. Of course, you give and you take; it is a give-and-take relationship...but with respect.

In sex,it is a give-and-take relationship with no respect. In compassion, you simply give. There is no idea anywhere in your mind to get anything back; you simply share. Not that nothing comes! Millionfold it is returned, but that is just by the way, just a natural consequence. There is no hankering for it.

When a flower has bloomed, it has to share its fragrance to the winds. It is natural! It is not a bargain, it is not a business; it is simply natural! The flower is full of fragrance — what to do? If the flower keeps the fragrance to itself then the flower will feel very, very tense, in deep anguish. The greatest anguish in life is when you cannot express, when you cannot communicate, when you cannot share. The poorest man is he who has nothing to share, or who has something to share but has lost the capacity, the art, of how to share it; then a man is poor.

The sexual man is very poor. The loving man is richer comparatively. The man of compassion is the richest; he is at the top of the world. He has no confinement, no limitation. He simply gives and goes on his way. He does not even wait for you to say a thank-you. With tremendous love he shares his energy. This is what I call therapeutic.

Buddha used to say to his disciples, “After each meditation, be compassionate — immediately — because when you meditate, love grows, the heart becomes full. After each meditation, feel compassion for the whole world so that you share your love and you release the energy into the atmosphere and that energy can be used by others.”"

(Osho)

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Just a little reminder

Intercourse *is* a bonding behavior. So our instinct that "sex bonds us more deeply" is correct. It's just that the neurochemical cycle after orgasm can also push us apart...one way or the other, at different speeds, depending upon where we are in the honeymoon cycle.

Obviously, some couples escape this built-in "alienation" problem, but many do not. So it pays to learn about the mechanics of it, so you can move in the direction of non-goal-oriented sex if you are affected, but you want to bond deeply with someone.

I think the "selfishness" of sex only becomes a problem as we get caught in the dopamine cycle and both partners feel like they have less and less to give. That's why new lovers (or those without partners) can't believe there could be such a thing as too much sexual stimulation. At first, lovers aren't generally feeling depleted, and are therefore naturally generous. When the neurochemical undertow catches up with them, it is easily projected onto *other* issues in the relationship. And the vicious cycle continues...often in another relationship.

So love is love. And sex is sex (neutral in and of itself). And balanced brain chemistry is a great way to keep love (and increased compassion) alive, whether or not you're having sex - hence all the spiritual traditions with practices like meditation, tai chi, prayer, whatever. Only those who feel whole inside can be truly generous/compassionate/fearless - whether or not they're having sex.

It's just that sex itself can be a brain-balancing practice, or a dopamine-cycle practice leading to subconscious feelings of lack over time. That's why many spiritual traditions called for celibacy; it's challenging to learn to stay off the neurochemical roller coaster.

Celibacy

Double argh! Those spiritual tradition spirits don't want me to say this as the site timed out twice making me rewrite twice.

It's interesting that not all spiritual traditions call for celibacy and some are even against it. It seems that the wise old guys weren't against sex per se, but perhaps the neurochemical roller coaster and still unknown elements. The last few thousand years might been a big mistake. Texts on sexuality can be understood differently if one considers the neurochemisty. Minority opinions transcribed, but discredited for ages, make more sense. Have we been naive to discredit the contribution to society just because it seems extreme to the majority who may not have a deep enough understanding? What do those terrorists want? I vote for air conditioning. Maybe karezza too so there is not need for future virgins. We could throw a karezza manual in with the AC wiring instructions.

Interesting article!

I read one book called "From Sex to Super consciousness" by OSHO which talks about how to rise beyond and above sex. There is no way one is going to be happy by just sex. One has to rise above it in order to be happy because the cycle of suffering is an unending cycle which has continued for many life times and will continue in this and future life times unless you stop it. The only way to stop this viscous cycle of suffering is by remaining conscious, alert, awake through meditation. I hope many people gets tired of the world they are living in and only then they will make efforts to break away and be free. Peace!

Peace to you, too!

I posted a quote (see above) that is similar to what you read in your book~~it's funny how you read something one day and the next day you see it again and again.

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Everyone has to start

where s/he starts. Gotta crawl before you walk.

The return to erectile health is a function of changes in the brain that affect a lot more than erections. Even though the guys here are ecstatic to have their members working properly, many are also delighted with the other changes and improvements they notice as a result of improved brain balance. When I celebrate their return to erectile health, I am also celebrating those more profound changes.

Give them time. Many of them will put it all together.

Wait really?

I didn't agree with Rachel's post about the connection between Porn and Karezza, but now this is getting weird. I've seen people stay together even after the honey moon is over and kids are running around. I don't think everyone is going to fall back into porn once they're lonely again, that's what the reboot is for. If three months on average without orgasm and sex does not teach you to be alone and deal with it, then I don't know what will. As far as guys who just care about getting erect, I don't think they're so bad either. I never suffered from ED and my erections always made sense, but everyone has different goals and can't be judged for it. Can you see it from their angles? A part of their body is not functioning and they fear it may never work again. It really does break my heart just hearing about it. You have to accept that there are recovering porn addicts here, and that there goals may not be the same as yours. Doesn't give anyone the right to judge anyone else.
"It always takes time to be good at something. No one's an expert right off the bat." - Motoko Kusanagi

My original post

Was meant to be a gentle reminder of what *can* happen to a relationship when sex is totally orgasm-driven and was written out of care and concern for what I see possibly happening with some of the men here as they regain their erectile function.

I don't want to see *anybody* struggle as hard and as long as some of you all have and then see you fall back into the downward spiral of orgasm/dopamine/depression/withdrawal symptoms.

Here we are on a forum originally intended to teach couples how to make love last with karezza and to me, that is an excellent goal for *all* lovers, whether they have recovered from porn or not (and I'm often thinking, *especially* those who have recovered from porn because they have even more sensitive pathways in their brains). Marnia and Gary are very good at cheering you all on when you recover from ED and have your first sexual experiences and I applaud them for that because it must be a bit of a conundrum for them to do so, knowing what they know about sexual relationships and orgasm's effect on them. (Umm, they've written a book about it and I hope *everyone* here, whether for porn recovery or karezza, READS it!!)

So, anyway, I hope the original intent is noted. It was not meant to be malicious nor judging.

And for FreakyFred (I adore you), yes, a man's penis *can* indeed be a magic wand!! I would say that it isn't used that way in 99.9% of sexual relationships, but for those of us here, an elite select few who have experienced it through karezza, it is, indeed! And I wish all women could experience a penis used in such a loving, giving, healing manner! (and the men, too)

Love you all~

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Yes, indeed!

You are so right~~

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Wow what a thread!

Hey guys you really made me laugh! Thank you FreakyFred and the others, I am still laughing!

wzk007: this made me breath a sigh of relief! Fortunately there are still guys out there that focus on the ultimate goal of relationship bliss - which will in the end make the world a better place. you were really fortunate to have the opportunity of karezza love.

You are right pcb, we should remind them from time to time that there is so much more to it.
Why should they run into the same traps that we have stepped into so many times? Chances are that they wake up at the age of 40 or 50 when they just look back on broken relationships and patchwork families and broken hearts, material struggles because of separations and having to pay for kids, that live somewhere else, bitterness and their very own trail of tears. So yeah, telling what we know might shorten this span and even help somebody not to waste their youth and power on superficial stuff.

Gosh if I had known about the poison when I was 16 !! A lot less hurt in my life! A lot more straight foreward... A lot more energy to build up a good life - Man there were so horrible times of heartbreak, fortunately it's over and I don't think it will happen again. I am bullet-proof now... or should I say "arrow"-proof ?! Wink

Yeah Rachel, I think it is a very good team around here. And thank you for Osho's words, very true...

I agree the ideas here can't

I agree the ideas here can't be pushed onto people, but sometimes I wonder about creating a different form of sex ed for children that runs throughout the grades and incorporates all sort of ideas to let them find their own way. Almost everything I learn these days makes me wonder why I didn't know about it when I was younger. The simple reasons seems to be I was consumed with the junk knowledge be crammed down my throat and long forgotten. Instead, I could have been learning larger ideas that would have stayed with me.

There is even a simpler way

Parents need to be open about sexuality to their children and stop expecting schools to do it. My parents were terrible and left everything (and I mean everything) to the schools. When parents ignore sex, it turns into a taboo and kids still do it, but with little real world knowledge. Drives me nuts, I just don't get why adults who are having sex are afraid to discuss it with their children. It's normal and natural.

With all the porn out there, parents need to have the discussion also. The schools will never be able to discuss that.

So I agree with your point, just wish parents made themselves available as their children go down their first sexual journeys. I know there are a few out there that handle it well, but I am amazed at how many people I know that learned everything on their own.

My theory is

that most parents are puzzled by their own unsatisfactory results and feel like what they have to teach may not be worth sharing. Maybe they hope their kids will do better *without* their input, or with supposedly "professional" input.

It might be simpler, but as

It might be simpler, but as you note it isn't happening. There is value to children learning in a peer setting too even if the parents are doing a great job.

The problem you note here is a problem with schools or for that matter any government service. There is a mindset of I'm being taken care of so I don't need to do anything. Then folks wake up one day and find out the taken care of part was all a sham and they've been left worse off than had they taken their own risks.

Where did the general thinking of not talking about one's sex life come from? People seem to talk about most other things in one circle or another. My guess is shame which seems silly given that's how we all got here.

Dunno

I could talk to my mother and my grandmother quite openly about sex. Maybe if I had been a boy, it would have been different though.

I still think that relationship contentment is a factor in willingness to talk to kids about sex.

my parents told me about it...

...and I did not feel to not know enough.

But I did not know enough, they just gave me the picture that it is good to be open about sexuality, because that was mainstream tenor. Shame was never a problem - and I can tell that I am now ashamed of some things I did in my life and there are things I really regret. I think there is a good way of shame to my opinion:
Like not starting to tell kids about sex when they are just too little to cope with.
Or trying to not trigger guys anymore by stopping to wear miniskirts and stuff.

I'd say sexuality became much more private for me after having found out about the reward center's drive.
For example when I went to a community where they were going to swim nudist in the sea, I did not join in in the nudist thing. Told them my privates are private... And they thought I am prude. Which was ok to me.

Being open about sexuality did not help me to lead a better life. In fact it messed some things up - and I now admire people that say "no sex before marriage". (before I thought they are prude) Wish I had done this! Maybe I would be married by now... I learned about the coolidge effect the hard way - and I wish they would have tought that in school, I'd wish they'd teach stuff like that now in schools, freedom, but you know what they do? They teach masturbation... in nursery school... creepy

Nursery school teaches

Nursery school teaches masturbation in Europe? I guess they need some way to hook the kids on electronic devices early. Go argue for karezza then. After all, the instruction, at least in the US, is supposedly fair and balanced, by which I mean often single-minded and one-sided, but presented as if it is multiple viewpoints that all lead to the desired social programming. Some textbooks are pretty scary and maybe should be burned. Go start a revolution so we can wake up and follow suit.

Not everyone in the no sex before marriage camp is married either, myself included. Despite the rough spots, you're probably better off not being married yet if you've found your way here. Think about how much better aligned your eventual partner can be with who you really are and how much more fulfilling that relationship can be than whatever might have been.

I've not seen nudism come up much here, but I'm not sure that would be incompatible with the reward center drive knowledge. What made you feel they were reward seeking? Anyone here involved with nudist communities or have thoughts on that? I've found it odd that we're supposedly sexually open, but nudism is considered too fringe. Something doesn't seem consistent in that, but I can't put my finger on it.

Shame and feeling ashamed are not necessarily linked. Feeling ashamed is regret, guilt, etc. about an actual choice. It is rooted in judgment from others or by the self. Shame and fear of shame can guide how we act in the future, often unconsciously and against our actual interests or in a manifestation that is not quite rooted in reality. One random somewhat related link: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/200807/negative-s...

Nudist

Being naked is liberating. It feels really good to sun, swim, be outdoors, with total skin contact with the elements. It is not sexy. At a clothing optional spa, the woman wearing a bikini bottom got a lot of attention from the guys.

no it was a socalled "free love" community...

..and they have a lot of triggers set there, nudity is for sure a trigger if you have linked it with Os. If not, it is not.

Spa could be something else, but as everybody has their porn-triggers set nowadays it is not innocent at all anymore, unfortunately. The interesting thing is that kids don't want to show their naked bodies after a certain age anymore, it becomes something private to them, and surely not because of a prude environment.. Why? I don't know. I would not make them feel bad or wrong about it...

And it is known that a warning sign for sexual abuse of children is when they are taking off their clothes in public (like nursery school) and showing their body/ genitals. Isn't that interesting?