♥ Twenty three

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Submitted by sood on
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I"m intrigued by the variety of Karezza posters at Reuniting. There are those established couples who use this way of making love to get closer, scale new heights of mutual pleasure, and become ever younger and healthier during the process. There are equally established couples who are sadly divided between one who would like to do the same and the other who expresses no interest. Then, there are the younger couples, starting out in a way I would have found incomprehensible at their age. Finally, there are innumerable singles, pining for a partner to try Karezza with. There don't seem to be many like me, with a partner who is more than willing to go along with non conventional sex, but where the results of this have been less than spectacular.

So I thought I might compile a Karezza 'wish list', to remind myself why I'm experimenting with this way of making love, and to monitor progress.

First and foremost, I'm after pleasure. This is hedonistic, but only up to a point. The sort of pleasure I want is the all consuming one that might be called ecstasy.

Then, I'm looking for a better relationship with my wife. That isn't to say I don't consider my current relationship good. I do, but it could be improved. We battle a lot, and always have done. My desire to make things more harmonious between us reflects the fact that I believe part of my life's purpose is to make peace with someone who has, from the moment I set eyes on her, seemed an inseparable part of my being.

I would also like various, relatively minor but still mildly distressing habits to fall by the wayside. I wouldn't say no to having more energy. Though I'm not particularly aware of any current shortfall, more of a spring in my step, especially in the mornings, would be great. I'm prone to irritation and anger, which it would be delightful one day to report was no longer the case. I still bite the skin round my fingers, and I'm aware of living with a consistent, very low level of anxiety that would be a blessing to watch melt away. I have a suspicion that this anxiety began around the time of my first orgasm ...

I also favour the idea of an active sex life that goes on and on as we age. This was happening anyway, but I like the notion that with Karezza we could be even more active, doing far less.

A month or so into my (our) most recent non orgasmic Karezza phase, I can report the following:

No ecstasy, yet. I - we - still find Karezza extremely pleasant and occasionally exciting but on the whole fairly soporific. I"m mildly distressed I quite often find my mind wandering, which I rarely experienced when making love in the traditional way. I'm even more distressed to find when that happens I realise I am ready to call it a day and read a book instead. I find this baffling. During conventional sex someone would have had to come in the room and stick a knife in my back to get my attention. Now, my attention just isn't there.

I'm still irritable, prone to cuticle biting, and vaguely anxious. My relationship with my wife is okay, although she seems a bit more moody.

We have been unusually inactive sexually. This could be largely circumstantial, due to an overfull house, but I doubt it, as the biggest difference I've noticed, after having avoided orgasm for a month, is an almost complete loss of interest in any form of sex! If my wife proposes Karezza, I find myself actually debating whether I want to be bothered. Bothered? Whenever my wife proposed sex in the past, I was enthralled. My whole being would light up. Now, I find I the prospect insufficiently enticing to want to make the effort to rouse myself. All in all, I feel as if I've been partially neutered.

Along with this disinterest in making love, I've also lost interest in masturbation, hardly even notice pretty girls in the street, and find myself strangely indifferent to scantily clad temptresses popping up on my computer. Can this be normal?

When we do get together, erections come easily enough, often simply as the result of kissing; but I very rarely have them otherwise. There's still plenty of cuddling, but the erotic spark is missing. The hunger's gone, and I"m not sure I like it.

In a nutshell, my mood seems much the same, our relationship is not that different, our lovemaking is hardly effervescent, and I'm becoming indifferent to sex. Blimey!

One thing worthy of note is that I am having much less difficulty than before in avoiding orgasm. However, as we have been making love so seldom, and I have such a hard time keeping my mind on what we're doing, anyway, this is hardly surprising.

I realise it is very early days. For the most part, all our previous attempts at sustained Karezza over a reasonable period of time had been scuppered by me upping the ante. Now I am no longer doing this, maybe the dust needs to settle. I'm mindful of Darryl"s advice to give it a good six months. My major concern is, if we do that, and things still haven't picked up, we may find we have lost the desire to return to a normal sex life. At present, we're certainly not one of those couples who would prefer no sex to conventional sex. We really enjoy (enjoyed?) conventional sex!

Comments

Libido

Sood, some of your symptoms (loss of interest in sex, etc.) kind of remind me of what I see in the porn recovery threads~~I wonder if that's possible? (maybe your mind was so involved in sex that now you are experiencing a flatline period now that you are no longer trying for orgasm?)

Also, as far as karezza not being able to hold your attention~~I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you remind me of my ex-husband a little bit in this way. What I mean is, people have asked me (including my current lover) if I think karezza would have kept the two of us together after 20 years, but honestly, I don't know that he would have been able to stay still long enough to enjoy karezza! (We always joked he had ADD--but it wasn't really a joke because he truly could never stay in one place very long at all.)

I so wish you could have the experience that some of us are having~~lately, for me, it's turned into an almost drug-like state in that I have lucid dreams during karezza and sometimes feel that I am out of my body while still being inside it.

However, being in balance does tend to make a person lose that every-day horniness (which I find uncomfortable and am glad to see it go) and it seems like erections are best saved for the actual sex act? (Why do men want erections when they can't use them, ha?? I will probably never understand this!)

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Recovery

Although I talk about being unable to relax during sex, I can actually relax only too well. It's just that I then lose interest and would rather doze off or daydream instead. It's as if, to enjoy sex, I need to be fully immersed; yet to be fully immersed, I need to be active. This all centres around a vortex of passion that, once unleashed, fizzles to nothing if it's discouraged. The stern voice of my internal Karezza policeman is doing the discouraging at the moment. Without this voice, I'd still be enjoying myself on the helter skelter.

I think you may be onto something, though, seeing similarities between my situation and that of the porn enthusiasts. Porn has never really been an issue for me but that doesn't mean I might not have a 'porn oriented' mindset. I definitely have, and always have had, an erotically charged temperament. It's been very much geared towards my wife, though. This meant that virtually all my sexual fantasies had her as their lead. And they weren't really fantasies as they involved nothing that hadn't already happened. Maybe this wasn't as healthy as I thought.

Either way, I get, or got, such a charge out of anticipating, savouring the prospect of, and actually having sex, which led nine times out of ten to orgasm, moving to a new style where the terms of engagement are so different may require something of a 'reboot'! I'm not entirely sure what this entails, but it sounds rather unpleasant.

Well...it that *is* your issue,

the chances are that you're already half-way through it. It can show up as apathy, irritability, low libido, etc. It's just the brain feeling "under-dopamined." Eventually it catches up with the fact that there will be less external stimulation...and sprouts new receptors so "less is more."

Most guys notice a big turn around near the 8-week mark, give or take.

Drifting off

It depends where we are, and when. In bed in the evening, if I let myself doze, I drift off to sleep. If we're elsewhere, and it's during the day, I go into a sort of stupor. It's not unpleasant, but it's not that different to lying in a hammock. My daydreams are either completely unrelated to what we're doing - I might find myself thinking I need to cut the grass or sort out that holiday flight - or else they're busy comparing what's happening with what has happened before, and finding it wanting.

So, there is an element of what you suggest; but it's by no means always that way. The most worrying aspect for me is when I start thinking of mundane trivialities - shopping, gardening, sport - while 'making love'. This has never happened to me before. I've always been so consumed by the process, thinking of anything else was impossible. In fact, that has been one of the greatest attractions of sex, for me. It's the ultimate 'mind wipe'. Karezza, by comparison, is beginning to seem like a worn wiper blade that only half works.

Are you two communicating

Are you two communicating about all this in the moment? Can you mediate in the sense of clearing your mind? You might already be meditating in that wandering thoughts can reflect internal housekeeping that leads to a clearer mind at other times.

Quiet mind

We don't talk much during sex. We're more the grunting, moaning, sighing types. If my mind's wandering, I'm probably silent. Ditto my wife, when she's only half there. Neither of us meditates, but I don't think we have much difficulty quieting the inner voice when it matters. I find circumstances do the quieting much better than we do. The problem at the moment is Karezza doesn't do this (for us) as well as conventional sex.

Talk

[quote=sood]If my mind's wandering, I'm probably silent. Ditto my wife, when she's only half there. [/quote]

Keeping a dialogue open about what you are experiencing in the moment might will lead somewhere. At a minimum, it should keep you from drifting too far into your wanderings.

All or nothing

Sood, would you describe yourself as an "all or nothing" kind of guy?

Meaning, once you get to a point where your brain and/or body is not being greatly stimulated (not only in sex, but other areas of life), you sleep/doze/lose interest?

Just curious~

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Stimulus and response

I wouldn't say so. I don't need massive amounts of stimulation to stay interested, generally. I think the problem - if it is a problem - has to do with expectations not being met, based on past experience. For example, if I decided tomorrow to eat less than I usually do, and to cut out obviously unhealthy food, I would expect, at least initially, to run up against difficulties, based on my prior experience of feeling 'full' and 'satisfied'. Assuming I stuck at it, it might take a few weeks or more to get used to the new regime, and longer still to get equal or greater satisfaction from it. Maybe it's like that with Karezza. It's not giving me what I'm to used to getting from sex, and what it is giving me I'm unable to properly appreciate - yet. In fact, because it seems such a poor substitute, I'm unwilling or unable to even pay proper attention to it. My hope is that by weaning myself off one type of stimulus, I'll become more responsive to another.

Hmmm

Well, that's where I'm baffled.

My sweetheart and I were still in the honeymoon neurochemistry stage and went from hot sex to karezza from one time to the next and we were *both* amazed at how much better karezza felt (and haven't really ever gone back since~~just not appealing anymore).

So that is why I'm baffled. Because I do *not* compare karezza to forcing yourself to eat healthy food when you really want french fries~~it's lovely on its own and in fact, a whole lot better.

I wish I could crawl into y'all's bodies to see what you are doing (or not doing!) to make it not as pleasurable as conventional sex!

I really want you all to "get it" and then you'll understand!

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Mrs. Torn here... you can

Mrs. Torn here... you can see in one of my blog posts this summer that I mentioned karezza felt a bit boring at one point (same thing you've said, drifting off to sleep, mind wandering, etc). My problem turned out to be two things... number one, a lack of communication that lead to one or both of us only half-heartedly participating (if both of us weren't enthusiastic about giving to each other via our positive poles... nothing really was received by our negative poles!). Number two... my clitoris was used to being stimulated and escalated and my vagina hadn't really woken up yet. In other words, I had the same old reboot to go through that the porn users here do! Shortly afterward, we started having the waves of ecstasy without any movement that the more experienced karezzi here talk about.

Energy

I've come across this concept in Diana Richardson's books but I'd really appreciate it if you could elaborate in plain terms what you actually had to 'do' to be "enthusiastic about giving to each other via (y)our positive poles...".   And how did you know when "nothing really was received by (y)our negative poles"?

One issue that I have difficulty with is the concept of 'energy'. Not the energy required to lift a weight or run a mile but the sort that is popularly supposed to underly all matter, but still has no scientific support and is ridiculed in many quarters. Presumably, it is this energy that resonates from 'pole to pole'? 

Personally, I have problems recognising 'energy', never mind encouraging its flow, though it's not from want of belief, particularly - it's just I've never knowingly experienced it.

Hard topic to write about!

Ahh, ok... well. I can make a few analogies and you tell me if any of them make sense to you. You ever get that woosh in your stomach when you're really nervous or excited? Or that anger welling up in your throat and head when someone gets a rise out of you? Or that tingly relaxed feeling in your arms after you sneeze or cough? These are all energy building or falling within one person... energy you can feel moving from one place to another, or feel it leaving you. Karezza is relaxing with another person until your energy starts to flow from one of you to the other and back again. And it feels steady and energizing, not sudden or depleting like the other examples. Our culture raises us to be very aware of individual energy experiences, but oblivious to shared ones. Our chips are flavor blasted and our TVs are always on (power up then power down). And our sex is like that too. But just as your individual experience of your own energy changes when you stop jacking up on stimulants and sedating yourself afterward... so your experience of sex can change, too.

The energy that I feel moving into me via my receiving pole wasn't always there, and I knew it wasn't there because Karezza was boring! I had to first close my eyes and envision it (I'm a visual person) and then I had to really relax in order to actually feel it. I mean REALLY relax. Every little nugget of anything I felt during intercourse, I would tell myself to breath and relax into it and just receive his energy (this is the opposite of conventional sex, in which tension is used to focus on one's own escalation). We look into each others eyes, breathe together, stroke each others hair and face... whatever it takes to help each other stay relaxed, open and not goal oriented. We soon get in sync and start to feel it. The more we relax and breathe, the more intense it feels (it's kind of a mind fuck when you first feel it, since we're so used to only feeling energy rise with effort). We still move now and then, but it feels more like dancing now. We sometimes stop to make a remark about how beautiful the breeze feels through the window, or how funny that sound was the cat just made.... but it's not because we aren't focused on each other, it's because an important part of remaining mindful is acknowledging and accepting little thoughts like that, so you can release them (have you ever meditated?). It's a big change from conventional sex... I don't think my husband would have noticed if the ceiling came down during sex before. But that's because we used to be intently focused on ourselves during sex (even if he was thinking of my pleasure, his ego was still getting something out of that).

When you are focusing on giving to another, and receiving is just something that happens... you find that you get a lot more.

-Mrs. Torn

:-)

What a wonderful description! I love it. It's so hard to describe these things, but I think you did a perfect job of it.

I also wanted to comment on "sending" energy as love rather than "taking" energy as need (also very hard to describe).

But even horses feel it (I'm going to do a little video to show you all, eventually)~~when I hug one of my horses and I'm doing it as a way to *send* love from my heart to them, they seem to love it. But when I hug them in a way that is needy on my part (i.e., I'm trying to *take* something from them that I need), they will literally reach around and act like they are going to bite me! (they wouldn't bite me, but they can pretend to in order to give me a message) And so your partner will really feel your energy as long as you are sending or giving it unselfishly.

There are times when my beloved will really be concentrating on sending me his love and energy and that is when I will get those little tremors or "kriyas" and when that happens, he will laugh because he knows he is doing it right and I am feeling it.

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

Mrs Tom

Thank you for that. This is what's hard for me, not just to relax, but to pay such exquisite attention to what is going on, while relaxing. I still feel like I have to 'do' something to get anywhere worthwhile. I did try TM years ago, but I got fed up spending twenty minutes quieting my chatting mind for a few moments of bliss!

It's another discussion I

It's another discussion I recall we've had in part before, but it's relevant so I bring it up again. In theory, we give for ourselves so even giving is a form of taking. Giving doesn't require the other person to do anything other than receive. If receiving is important then to giving and in actuality a form of giving itself, how does one receive without taking? Can one receive without neediness if one in fact needs? If one is thirsty, can one welcome a drop of water with the same gratitude as an overflowing cup? Can one sustain a dual-channel process of giving and receiving simultaneously? Is that possible at high intensity? Or only by lowering the bandwidth uses by the giving/receiving process? Or by merging giving and receiving into one giving that is encoded in such a way that our mind-bodies understand the polarity?

Note to self: Don't think about this when interacting with humans in person.

Sood

Well, my friend, you seem to be a tough nut to crack on the karezza front. I hear you loud and clear that conventional sex is simply more pleasurable for you but I will tell you with conviction that karezza is infinitely more pleasurable, and you will get there provided you stay genuinely open and stick with it. I don't think the conversation that karezza awakens between the penis and vagina (and the whole body) is happening between you two because if it were, you'd be hearing it. And you would not be bored. No way, not possible. Every single stroke inside your wife could be ecstasy, just being in her, period, could be heaven, just because she wants you in her. The warmth and softness of her skin pressed against you, her fragrance, everything about her should delight you. She should BE pleasure. For me, this is the language of karezza, delighting in my woman, in the moment, to be received by her. This is true pleasure.

I find the best way to awaken this conversation, is to adore your woman. The pleasure I seek is in her, IS her, not in my escalating stimulation and ensuing orgasm. Adore her eyes, the way her hair falls and frames her face. The way she smells, the cadence of her feminine voice. Whatever you find delightful about her, see it and drink her in. If it's your pleasure you seek, then her delights (which can go very deep) you will most likely  miss. But if it's her you adore and enjoy, then your pleasure will come naturally. When you do this she will feel it and open up to you more, deepening the pleasure you both experience. This is the karezza dance, the dance of two.

When I read what you say it sounds like you continually use conventional sex as the measuring stick to compare karezzza with. I find conventional sex and karezza two very different experiences. Karezza can never really be compared with conventional sex, they operate in two different paradigms. Remember, as Marnia and Gary so clearly state, conventional sex is a fertilization-based framework and karezza-style sex is a bonding-behavior one. You can't use a fertilization framework to measure karezza. You have to move to the karezza modality to know what it has to offer.

There's really no right and wrong here. If you're getting bored and losing interest in sex with your wife, I, personally, wonder if this experiment is a good thing. Maybe it's not the right time for karezza. Maybe wait until you are really drawn to this way of making love. Just some thoughts.

*swoon*

Darryl, your posts *are* karezza!

Hugs,

Rachel

~Be present when you are with people. Breathe deeply and listen not only with your ears but more importantly with your heart~~

The right time

I never used to make comparisons, when Karezza was simply one option out of many. I found it a welcome respite, in many ways, from relative frenzy, and enjoyed it to the hilt. Now, though, it's difficult not to compare the new way with the old, as it's become a complete (even if only temporarily) replacement. 

I don't want to give the impression I in any way dislike Karezza. On the contrary, it's great! It's just not that great, yet, and it seems to be having some unexpected side effects. I'm going to persevere a while longer, though, and see if I can engineer an attitude change, rather than keep looking for something physical to pep things up. I've had some great advice, from you and others; the least I can do is try it.

I already adore my wife; but it's been the sort of adoration where I want to inflame her passion, which isn't what's required now. Old habits are hard to shake off, though. We've been enjoying conventional sex for so long, it would be strange if we didn't still hanker after a certain amount of orgasmic frenzy (although, as I mentioned, I seem to have lost interest in that, for the moment!)

I think I see a way forward, but it'll require time. If we're patient, we may get a glimpse of what could lie in store for us down the line. If not, maybe we'll follow some other path, or get back on the old, well worn one.