♥My first post: bonding, passion, drama, dysfunction, peace, desire (long story)

Submitted by westgate on
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Note from Marnia. I decided to add a ♥ because this strikes me more as a relationship post than a recovery post...not that the two are always separate.

Hey,
I thought I'd share a small part of my story as a way of introduction. I didnt really feeling comfortable jumping onto another post and had no idea where to put it, so please move it if its not in a good spot.

BONDING
My first introduction to bonding behaviours really began with my first (and, so far, only) deep connection. Lets call her Star.
We met 9 years ago. I remember on one of our first dates she told me she 'hated being touched'. I said told her that i love touching and asked if she minded if i gently massaged her head. She said 'no i dont mind, but dont expect me to do it back.' Of course i teased her for being such a cheeky little flirt with that response Wink ... anyway it turns out she loves to be touched, held, caressed.. God, we all do.

PASSION
We started off crazy passionate about each other, making love all the time with lots of generous affection & bonding behaviours... and tonnes of wild orgasms too. This phase lasted for about 4-5 years, but the cracks were appearing. We ignored them. We were young, naive and intoxicated. Emotional firey, but at times, so connected and beautiful. Our souls touched briefly sometimes. We had an experience where we lay with me inside her, just touching and gazing at each other without orgasm. It was Karezza, but we didnt have a name for it. It only happened once, before the big bad O-drug was back with other reinforcements (sh1t! O's everywhere!!).

She was my second sexual partner & unlike most of my mates, I was blessed to learn early on (I dunno how) that we have been sold a huge, fat lie by society. ***That banging as many chicks as possible is the path to being a great bloke.*** Liar, liar pants on fire!
Lads the world over, please sit down with your sons and tell them "When it comes to girls, listen to your heart, not the other boys or the crap u see on TV.. It's a voice that is quiet, but it is always there. Then think and choose for yourself how u want to be."

DRAMA
So back to the story, those cracks became fissures and we broke up. I dealt with the heart ache with a lot of strength training, work, booze, experimenting with drugs, hanging with mates, ignoring my feelings, trying to connect with girls.. Im empty & I started sleeping with Star again. Star dealt with it by relying on family & becoming sexually extroverted (topless waitressing, using guys, posting porno videos of herself).

Sometime in there, I bought and read Marnia's book (and this forum) & the spiritual sexuality & biological programming resonated with me. Marnia & Gary, you've created something special. Thank you.

At this time, me and Star then played the back and forward game of wanting each other, then not (1.5 years total). I finish my qualifications, obtain a position in Sweden and tell her goodbye. She flips and desperately wants to move o/seas with me once she hears all this.
Im not addicted to porn because the passion and intensity in our relationship is my drug... so I, of course, take more of that drug. This was my addiction. Not porn. Or coke. Or pot. Or alcohol. I see it now, i loved the madness & the fire. I had similar withdrawals when we split.
Im slow on the uptake, but finally worked this out!

DYSFUNCTION
So Star moves over after 6 months long distance relationship. She is a beautifully intelligent, perceptive & compassionate woman, you guys would love her on here. She understood Karezza and while she wasnt sold on it intellectually, said she would give it a go for sure.

I know the girls who've read this far are waiting for a happy ending with lots of generous Karezza and the boys are waiting for graphic descriptions (Pictures!) of the wild sex... haha, no. Not the great men reading here :)

Unfortunately, our relationship falls apart badly at this stage. We dont do Karezza and we rarely make love. Star was cheating on me back in Australia & the shame (and many other things) causes her to become abusive, depressed, self harming & suicidal. I function really poorly too. Her behaviours are classic high functioning borderline personality disorder, but i dislike labels like that. Everyone is unique. After some truly awful experiences, we go our own ways and have not talked since.

PEACE [ying]
So now im on my journey to peace. It's been a few months since Star has been gone and I see this time as my brain/body rewiring from the addiction of living in the place i like to call 'crazy, dysfunctional land.'

I am avoiding orgasms and this is going great (maybe 3 or 4 weeks now) and filling my life with plenty of exercise, healthy food, stimulating work and lots of social interaction with others. Im still feeling mostly numb emotionally, sexually and energetically. I keep telling myself this is normal and to trust my heart. It may be like a reboot that the porn guys on here describe. It may not. Any thoughts?

DESIRE
I recently had my first one night stand with a girl. It was not so fun. She wanted hard, fast, emotionless sex, i wanted slow, sensual touching without orgasm... I'll admit these dichotomous expectations were entirely my fault, my body language was screaming "mate with me!" from the moment i met her. Anyway we just took it in turns: me giving her what she wanted, then she kissed, touch and held with me.
It was nice in some ways, but, no matter how well I act, I still know I'm acting... unless i was maybe Danial Day Lewis.... Or Vin Diesel. Wow, what an actor! :P

The experience did provide me with a very small concept of what its like to be a girl and have someone just want you for sex. God i'd be SO dissillusioned if partner after partner was like this!!!! Oh girls (& guys) who've had this, i feel for you.

Anyway, I guess I'd like to learn some other ways of attracting girls without communicating to their mating program. I wonder if there is a discussion on this? How do you guys go about dating and flirting?

(long story... coming to an end)
My plan is to try to work towards a balanced, peaceful life. Im not rushing into a sexual relationship, but will let the opportunity arise naturally. Someone to touch with (cuddle buddy) would be pretty cool and im considering asking for this the next girl im interested in.

If you made it this far, thank you for reading. I know long posts are tough to swallow.

All the best,
Westgate

Long posts are wonderful

Thanks for sharing your story. *sigh* Passion can definitely become a drug. I'm sorry Star opted not to explore karezza. Sad It's sometimes hard for us women to give up our seduction routine, because it makes us feel powerful, and because our culture tells us it's what will make men really happy. If only it did. Smile

Anyway, you might have to look for a partner in another milieu. Maybe tantric circles? Meditation circles? Someplace where people can speak your language.

Meanwhile, start your own blog, and move this introduction there (or link your new blog to here). That way you can keep us posted as your explorations unfold.

Hi

[quote=westgate]
Anyway, I guess I'd like to learn some other ways of attracting girls without communicating to their mating program. I wonder if there is a discussion on this? How do you guys go about dating and flirting?[/quote]

Good question. I've been thinking that the fork in the road where you choose bonding-based sex vs. fertilization-based sex comes somewhere after attraction and flirting. I haven't thought about whether flirting would be different for someone who is aimed at bonding.

When you say "flirting," do you mean banter-with-subtext (that could happen with a work colleague, for instance) or more overt sexual signaling (like what goes on at a bar during last call)?

imnotcoming.wordpress.com
imnotcoming.tumblr.com [contains sensual imagery]

Reply

@Marnia,
Thanks for the advice. Yes, female seductiveness is very powerful & we men are convinced it makes us happy too. Thanks for the advice about where to look, i didnt really consider actively seeking girls who are already open to that path, but its a great idea! Ill start a blog & move this there when i work out how, it might take a few days to read up how, im new to this stuff :)

@imnotcoming
I really like your description of the fork in the road. Attraction versus bonding roads.
I may be wrong, but is it possible that if we flirt to build sexual tension & excitement (hands down the best way to signal attraction), then when we fork and say words like 'im looking bonding & connection', our bodies have already exchanged some pretty powerful msgs otherwise?

Flirting for me is the works: eye contact, facial expressions, body language, words, voice, tone, touch etc. I personally cant separate them (well i better be able to separate touch!!!). I know what u mean about work versus bar flirting, i guess i just see these as same ques used in different ways: subtle versus overt, suggestive versus actual, slow versus fast.
Bar flirting is the least fun for me, its too disconnected from our hearts. My take is that girls & guys dont care so much what you say in a bar, just how u say it :(

How has the flirting/attracting gone for you when you later choose to fork down the Karezza path closer to the intimate stage? I've had 3 experiences all end very similarly with this road.
Please feel free to point me to your other posts if you have discussed it there!

Regards,
Westgate

I know it's tough

but maybe there's a way to educate a potential partner first. We wrote our book as a tool, so people could say, "Hey I read this wild book by a crazy American. It's about why relationships are so fragile and how to solve the problem. Some of it actually made sense to me. I'd be curious what you think."

Give her a copy and time to read. Don't try to explain the ideas yourself. NO one can "grock" them without reading a few chapters and mulling over their past relationship dynamics. They also need time for their resistance ("This f*cking CAN'T be right!!!") to come up - without you around to project their anger onto. And they need time to "wrap their head around" the realities of our mating biology and their implications in today's hook-up culture.

I think education, or very good "slow 'er down" lovemaking skills, are your best starting points if you want to play with the karezza ideas. Maybe both. The mainstream meme of pornstyle sex is so strong that people don't even realize they are choosing the approach to sex most guaranteed to result in short, dramatic relationships. They don't even know there's another option, or why bonding behaviors would create a desire to stay close. This information is completely off their radar at the moment, unless you put it back on.

Education can't be done casually or quickly. It takes a clear sense of purpose, convincing actions and, for me at least, sound explanations of why the porn formula will generally produce rapid turnover. Let the book do the work.

Women *want* to please (and seduce...) men. Our culture today teaches us only one way to go about it. Can't expect women to know anything different without a bit of information.

you're onto something... u've discussed this before havent u? :)

I'm hearing you Marnia.
"Change comes from within"

Im also of the opinion that guys and girls *really* want to please each other. I think with the right approach, a new partner will give it a go. And would i really click with someone so closed that they wouldnt try it?

You've convinced me to use the book. I geuss i need to cultivate consistent actions in myself too.. At the moment i am also habituated to the mating program and i cant ask someone else to play it cool, while im still heating them up!

I recently had a pretty deep conversation with two of my mates. They are two of the most emotionally mature people i have ever met and we value each others opinion.
I talked to them about Karezza, and described in words they'd understand. They were enthralled with the idea and asked heaps of questions.. we talked for ages.. but they weren't sold on a word of it!

Its like "yea, that sounds really awesome. Yea. yea. Yea. Nah, not for me."

Given the quality of our mateship, if I cant sell it to these boys, then trying to sell it to a stranger is nigh impossible. And 'sell' really isnt the way forward here is it!

Dam you "This f*cking CAN'T be right!!!" feeling.. you trump me again!
Ill beat you soon :)

*chuckle*

Don't worry, I was the slowest learner of the lot. Even after I was truly inspired by the descriptions of ecstatic slow lovemaking, I still kept trying to shoehorn my old passion-goddess tricks into my bedroom efforts. Wink Slowly I learned that I was hurting both my partner and myself. That's what finally got me to put on the brakes. Relationships are precious and good for our health. Hook-ups are hot, but get discouraging after a while.

If you're gonna sell karezza, the real question you have to learn to ask is, "Hey, would you be willing to try this for three weeks and then tell me what you think?" Even in that short a time, people usually experience things they never thought were possible...even though things can still be a bit bumpy if someone is still rebooting or whatever. And most of us still do some back and forth with conventional sex. Just getting a taste plants a powerful seed.

But no one is going to (or should) sign on for a complete change in such a fundamental behavior without test driving it. So the real sales job is just to get them to test drive. Smile

If your intention is clear, you'll find a way. It s a big change for any of us.

My take on flirting

is informed by my own flirting style, which I would call the "Bridget Jones" style. Technically I'm terrible at it, but in my awkwardness I manage to attract some people anyway. If I find someone who wants to talk about the subjects I like, we have a great conversation and I smile a lot, but I have no moves and I suck at eye contact when I'm attracted to someone. My hand would start shaking if I ever tried to casually brush a hair out of someone's eyes or anything smooth like that. I freakin wish I could do that. (The exception is when I'm drunk, of course I can do that.)

It feels like when I am single and my mammal brain says, "Make a connection! How about that one?? He looks fine, go for it!", I do experience that as tension that calls for resolution, but that the resolution could be pointed down either fork in the road, depending on how I allow things to unfold. The tension here is much, muuuuuch less than the tension of escalation towards orgasm. I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like I will escape feeling some tension as long as I lack something I need (sexual touch). Unlike a lot of spiritual belief systems, I don't expect to feel all filled up without fulfilling this human need for sexual touch. Somewhere in my blog posts about "explaining this to a date" and about Actor Guy, I talk about how I felt a lot of sexual tension before our first kiss, and I wouldn't change that actually. I still like the feeling that the universe is hucking you straight at someone and there's no denying it. Once we were making out (our first makeout was very consistent with karezza), the tension evaporated. That's why I think the "make a connection!" tension is distinct from the "i need to get off!" tension, and thus, one doesn't have to flow directly into the other.

Maybe right now you are feeling the downsides of sexual tension and you want to dump all of it, completely. My version of that impulse is that I think I would like to be friends for a few months prior to my next sexual relationship. I dunno if that's possible if I feel as much tension as I felt with the above-mentioned guy.

I could understand if you said that the only way for you to make this change is to go all the way back to that first flirtatious look and change every step to be bonding-driven. Maybe there wouldn't be any part recognizable as flirting, but that you would end up dating someone after you had been friends for awhile. This is reminding me of how relationships tend to play out among chaste, marriage-aged Christians in the Bible Belt, USA. They don't tend to have the fiery relationships that make for good poetry and art. For example, two people who've been on the same church staff for a year might pair off and get married. There are conversations like, "I've known you for nine months, and I've been praying about God's reason for putting you in my life for three months, and now I want to talk about the possibility of us dating in order to find out if we should get married." It seems stiff, but there is also something refreshing about people being so careful about starting relationships. (I still don't want my life to be like that. Eeeek! Too risk-averse for me.)

imnotcoming.wordpress.com
imnotcoming.tumblr.com [contains sensual imagery]

Ideas on flirting

Imnotcoming, i think you're underselling yourself, that sounds like a really cool flirting style, very natural. Great conversation and genuine smiles rock, im surprised how hard they are to find sometimes!

I read some of your other posts. God yes, i know exactly what you mean about the 'connection' tension you describe versus sexual tension. When you're single and have no contact with the opposite sex, you get this tension so that touching becomes really energetic. Then when you hold each other and kiss the tension is transformed into a calm energy like a shimmer (i think that's the word you used).

"Unlike a lot of spiritual belief systems, I don't expect to feel all filled up without fulfilling this human need for sexual touch" +1. You nailed it there for me too. I like to bring this stuff up in conversations all the time and i find that most people agree with you.

Oh whoa, i definately wasnt saying to remove the chemistry! Sorry, i realise that I wasn't really clear in what i was asking in the first place. I am retarded like that! The description you provide of christians hooking up because they've known each other for a long time sounds really.... sh1t. haha, no. That's really not my cup of tea.

The energy that sparkles between two people who are clearly attracted to each other is special. I guess i wanted to explain that whenever ive felt this energy, I instinctively start subtle sexual signalling too, touching the skin of the lower back, finding excuses to whisper in their ear, lips brushing the skin 'by accident' when talking etc etc

I like trying out new ideas. So what im thinking is, what if we changed some things? kept the beautiful connection energy, but flirted slightly differently. Let me try and explain with a story:

Me and a girl go on a first brief date: daytime for coffee. We feel immediately at ease, quickly get talking about interesting topics, laugh a lot, smile and look in each others eyes while talking. The chemistry is clearly there. The date finishes at the stage where we start lightly touching each others arms during the conversation. We end with some cheeky comments and a grin.

Our second date occurs after some subtely sexual texts. Its light and fun. Its a night time date this time, at a bar. Its a cozy sort of bar, not too full and we are standing close to each other while we are talking. We quickly get really engaged in our conversation with each other and both of us are looking into each others eyes as we talk, feeling good about each other and smiling a lot. We Laugh together a lot and we both drift in to stand closer, so that our arms and shoulders are now accidently touching regularly with each other.

Now for the signalling:
She touches my arm to make a point while talking. I smile at her. Not long after I reciprocate by toughing her arm back in the same way. She says something really insightful, so I then put my hand on her lower back and lean in slowly and whisper to her. I tell her something that is really unique to her that i have really liked, for example "i'm not sure if you know this, you may be attractive, but its how approachable and genuine you are is the reason a lot of people like you". She blushes, makes a joke out of it and leans her body against mine. We then continue to talk, but our bodies press in more and more against each other. Our faces get close as we take turns getting closer to talk. I move her hair over her shoulder and allow my hand to brush her neck, she smiles. And reciprocates not long after this by placing a hand on my chest. I smile and lean gently into her hand. Not long after this, when she finishes a sentence, i keep looking into her eyes and i pull her in and we kiss...

We all know where this ends. We leave the bar and go to one of our places, perhaps briefly pretend we both are bashful, then go inside and the kissing and physical contact gets hotter. This is where i find it is nigh impossible to fork to bonding behaviours.

On the other hand, taking all that electric gazing, smiling, laughing & touching away means that there is no chemistry and your potential date just moves on to someone they believe presses their buttons and they feel the chemistry with.

So one idea i had, is that i ask permission to touch.
I say "may i touch your lower back?" with a smile. It's respectful and kind. But also a little unusual and awkward on a date. Im not sold on this one.

A second idea I had is to talk about physical contact before hand.
I might bring it up like this: "I was talking with some guys at work and we were discussing whether we liked spooning and why. What do you think?" Which you can then discuss further, or it opens the topic to say "well, i actually have a unique idea about physical contact that i would love to try, but havent found someone that'll try it with me"... and you give a brief description about what you do/dont like (bonding behaviours versus mating instincts etc).

If you;ve had this conversation prior to the storyline above, and it ends up at home, I say "i'd love to take it slow and really enjoy just touching you" its not a disappointment for them then, but they feel honoured be someone who will try this out with you. Furthermore, if it ends up in sex, taking it slow and avoiding orgasm is not unexpected and its kinda cool. Afterwards, they can then feel comfotable asking how it was, without feeling like they didnt perform because you didnt orgasm.

A third idea i had is to introduce games like the exchanges really early on. You say 'lets play a game'. Then talk them through a bonding exchange. Its pretty exciting if a date that you're getting along with does this with you. You can then talk about your thoughts on bonding and touching.

A fourth idea is to just talk about all these ideas with a girl when we start dating! I like this one the best. You discuss these things with your date (ok, so you go easy on the avoiding orgasm stuff, its a TOUGH sell)... You start talking about sexual signalling and then say "for example, if i did this..." and demonstrated it. Then you talk about bonding touch and demonstrate it. I think if you were on the same page here, it would create a tonne of energy and connection, at the same time as setting the path for non orgasmic, bonding sex from the start along with great communication.

A fifth idea is Marnia's - to look in areas where people are open to that stuff, like meditation classes, tantric groups etc etc.

Anyway, im looking forward to testing out what works and what doesnt. I've asked a girl i like to come out this Sunday, so fingers crossed she is 1) free and 2) interested.

I have been reading the post (here) on how to introduce Karezza to a partner. I like it a lot.

Regards,
Westgate

Yep, I'm following you

So you want to keep the chemistry (which I was referring to as a lesser sexual tension, but "chemistry" works better) but stop the sex signaling.

Do the experiments and report back! Maybe you'll sound like a creep with idea #1, but I want to hear a story, so... you should do it. LOL!

It sounds like you are pretty good at the traditional script, so maybe your challenge is to disconnect the point where eye-contact, laughing, and shoulder-touching flow naturally into ear-whispering and small-of-back-touching within those first couple dates. Even though I'm sure it's super gratifying to keep getting to the next stage, when you know you can! Or when you're not sure if you can, but want to find out.

You could make the first couple dates during daylight hours and doing a fun (unusual?) activity, like... spelunking or a guided foraging tour for wild herbs. When the activity is its own reward, there is less of an undercurrent that sex is expected/imminent.

The standard way is to have someone read CPA or the Richardson's book and let them digest it, but I also like the other ideas you're talking about. It would be cool to live karezza without the other person knowing what is motivating your choices (until later, when you explain it). They just see your behaviors and perhaps form an impression that you have something a little different going on. At first, I felt more tentative about this, but now I feel more confident living in my karezza-tinged universe and doing things that break the script. For instance, if I have a cuddle buddy opportunity, I'm not going to lead off with an explanation of my sexual approach. I'm going to indicate what I want and stop the guy if he does something I don't want. Maybe you saw where Darryl talks about guiding a newbie with his body rather than with information, which sounds like something that works better for the male.

My way of connecting with people is primarily verbal (I talk too much), but I'd like to strengthen some of the other ways of communicating.

I think there's a possibility with some of this that you could create a lot of tension in the woman and she might start acting needy/clingy if she feels that her seduction routine doesn't work on you but she doesn't know why. But you can now also be more understanding of that behavior.

imnotcoming.wordpress.com
imnotcoming.tumblr.com [contains sensual imagery]

Failed seduction routine

[quote=imnotcoming]
I think there's a possibility with some of this that you could create a lot of tension in the woman and she might start acting needy/clingy if she feels that her seduction routine doesn't work on you but she doesn't know why. But you can now also be more understanding of that behavior.
[/quote]

Yes, but if the woman does that she might not be up to the task at the moment.

haha

"Do the experiments and report back! Maybe you'll sound like a creep with idea #1, but I want to hear a story, so... you should do it. LOL!"
hahahahaha, u crack me up. Ill try it for sure. U gotta test the hypotheses right?

Im also liking the idea of just living it and letting your actions speak about Karezza rather than selling it. I love the quote "who you are speaks so loudly that i do not hear what you say"
I plan on just letting a date look through my book shelf while im cooking dinner (or something). The book is red, big and has 'sexual relationships' in the title... and by 'bookshelf' i only have 3 books over here, two of which are work.. so really, could it be any more attractive?

Knowing my luck, ill come back from the kitchen to find her reading "electrochemical methods. fundamentals and applications"
(dam!!!)

You guys can ignore this

You guys can ignore this reply, but I just need to say it: stories like the one in this thread make me feel like true love does not exist.. you've had the passion for more than 4 years, that's a lot! And I guess neurochemically its not supposed to last much longer..

We search and search for love with the right one and it seems like an undertaking thats not supposed to work out in the long run. Especially when I compare this to the effortless love I feel towards music and dancing.

Sorry about my grim outlook on this. I'm in a negative phase of my reboot..

Dont be discouraged mate

Thebeg,
Mate, im sorry your going through a negative phase. I wish i could be there to remind you that it'll pass and to drag you out to do something with you to take your mind off it :)

I went through it and i have to say, it actually encourages me to realise that it really does exist. We had 4-5 years of blissful connection and another 4 of tumultuous connection. And do you know why? Bonding behaviours were natural to us. Its as simple as that. People who just met us would think that we were a recent couple - even to the end (9 years later) simply because we hand hands, kissed, touched and considered each other.

Even at the end, the connection was still there as strong as ever. Perhaps even stronger. We were just that far out of balance otherwise, that it became impossible to continue. I have no doubt had we practised Karezza for a period of say 3 months, that would have allowed us to put down our swords and start to authentically forgive each other.

I have no regrets. I learned tonnes about myself and what i want. But trust me, true love does exist.
I think we are given the best knowledge here to ensure it doesn't get overridden by our mating programming