♥I Want Something Different...I Think...

Submitted by Odrade on
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Hello Everyone,

This is my intro post. I apologize if this is in a jumble because I'm not really sure of how to approach this subject.

I just started recently seeing some. Actually, I just moved to a part of the country where he lives after being in a long distance relationship with him. He is a wonderful man but we are having some issues. One of the biggest is that I am wary of becoming involved with a man again. I was deeply hurt by my recent past experience with my ex. There was a severe lack of communication, connection, and understanding between us. Led to infidelity, lying, betrayal, and a complete destruction of trust.

The man I am seeing now is very gentle, very sweet. He is what I describe as "touchy-feely". Loves to snuggle, kiss, hold hands, be close. Sounds great except for one thing. We've had some problems/issues with sex. He was having some trouble with ED and I automatically wondered if it was porn related. Why? Because the same thing happened with my ex. He began to have trouble with this and made excuses. It wasn't until I caught him watching porn that I automatically made the connection (this was many years ago and I had already intuitively made the connection between ED and porn...it just makes sense) to his ED. So I thought that this might be a problem with my current interest. It was more of a problem with my teasing him, a difference in culture, and his worry over whether he would be able to please me or not.

FFW...when I was wondering about whether our problem was due to porn-related ED, I stumbled upon this community. I want to try karezza with him. Why? Because I don't like the way orgasms make me feel. A little sick, a little angry. They leave me with a strong desire to push my partner away. I want to be left alone after they happen. I don't have them easily or often during sex but I do give them to myself when alone (tension release and insomnia cure). Even while alone, I don't like the way I always feel afterward.

My partner thinks that giving me orgasms is very important. He also thinks him having them is very important. I have no idea of how to introduce such a concept to him. I've already talked to him just recently about how I really dislike the after affects of orgasms. He was okay with that but I didn't bring up him not having them. He is very open-minded, willing to listen, and receptive. His love of attachment behaviors (see above) seems like it would make him more apt to respond to karezza. But like almost everyone else, he comes with preconceived notions of how sex "ought to be". I am unsure of how to even address this. Where do I start?

Thanks everyone.

Welcome

Always great to have another woman here. Smile

He sounds like a lovely man. Can't blame him for not knowing about something as unfamiliar as karezza. Smile It took me years to wrap my head around it, even though I could see the potential in the idea right away.

Maybe his ED is a blessing, because it's the perfect opportunity to give him this book: http://www.reuniting.info/tantric_sex_for_men_richardson It contains a practice called "soft entry." That's a way of having sex, regardless of erection state. So it would take all the performance pressure off of him.

At the same time it also explains the wisdom of sidestepping orgasm, so he would get a lot of educating about the karezza approach (although the book calls it "tantra").

Have you prowled around the "Karezza Korner"? It has lots of helpful advice, too: http://www.reuniting.info/karezza_korner_intro He might even enjoy reading some of it.

I'll also enable you to start your own blog, in case you'd like to. http://www.reuniting.info/resources/bloggers

Hello Marnia, Thank you for

Hello Marnia,

Thank you for the reply.

He doesn't seem to have much of a problem with ED anymore since we cleared up our misunderstanding. He is definitely the sort of man to be affected physically if something emotionally is bothering him.

I will be getting several books here. I want him to read them but I really don't want him to misunderstand me again. He's already let me know that he would consider it dishonest if I held back from having an orgasm if he was causing me to have one. He wants me to have them. I feel uncomfortable telling him about how orgasms make me feel. He doesn't understand that because of how his make him feel. I'm not sure I can persuade him to give that up.

I want to give them up. We were together the other night and...well, let me just say that the after affect is not pretty. I feel intensely hostile toward him right now. I don't want to see or talk to him. He's confused and upset by my distance (even though he knows that I often withdraw to take time to process my emotions). I don't want to cause damage by being harsh so it's better to avoid him until I can regain my equilibrium.

On my end, I am unsure of my ability to attach. I was just ended a marriage of 22 years. I fall under the "dismissal" pattern of attachment. I am highly autonomous (and an atypical female). My ex was the opposite and felt free to cheat on me instead of communicating to me how he felt about our relationship. It left some significant marks on me.

I'm not even sure if I can do this...be bonded to someone...attached to another in this way. It sounds rather scary to me. I don't have deep emotional needs but my interest does. I do want to try. Gah...I'm just scared. I'd hate to lose this man because I am too scared or can't attach. I'd also hate to lose him because his desire for me has dulled. He's not the type that would leave because he is very loyal but he is very idealistic and would suffer in silence.

I think I am frightened by attachments dying because of the "thrill" being gone. It's even more sad when people desperately try to hang on to it and it just doesn't work. I am tempted to avoid this all together by not being in a relationship.

Wow...I cannot believe I am admitting something like this. I was with someone for 22 years and never revealed such private thoughts.

Ever unfolding, ever new....

While I haven't been in the exact situation you have

I can identify with your desire to avoid the pain of loving someone who doesn't love you back the way you want or need. Until recently, I always felt I carried ghosts of past broken relationships, and when my current partner would say something that upset me, it could trigger either irrational anger, or irrational fear that the relationship was ending, and that would send me into a place where I was unable to calm down or be rational at all.

If you are getting some of Diana Richardson's books, pick up her book, "Feeling vs. Emotion" - it really helped me a lot with these unwanted emotions related to my past broken relationships.

Quizure

Societal detox

[quote=Odrade]
Wow...I cannot believe I am admitting something like this. I was with someone for 22 years and never revealed such private thoughts.
[/quote]

Welcome to societal detox where we let it all hang out. It's a tad weird, but for our better.

What do you mean by you don't have deep emotional needs?

Do you want to attach, but that is scary or don't want to attach (right now)?

Welcome Odrade,

I'm happy to hear from another voice that is interested in non-orgasmic sex. I'm also happy to hear that you, like myself, do not like the "social scripts" of "how sex is supposed to be". As a man, knowing about karezza takes an enormous pressure off me which I always felt around "needing to perform". If your man is anything like me, karezza will be a relief to find out about.

Thanks, Telepathy. I've

Thanks, Telepathy. I've always been a quiet rebel. I felt I had to since I am bisexual.

I think he has been exposed to a lot of cultural programming. I also think that he has a difficult time because he is an introspective, gentle, loving person and doesn't fall into the cultural guidelines of how a man should be. So I wonder if some of this will come across as me telling him he's not really a man so stop trying to be...or if it will be ultimately liberating for him.

Ever unfolding, ever new....

Wanna Script?

"I care deeply for you and want this relationship to continue and grow. I'm feeling distant right now and want some space BECAUSE I had an orgasm. It will take some time to recover and then I would like to be with you. There is an excellent book you could read, CPA, and a website devoted to this phenomenon." That's what I'd want to hear.
I think maybe some of the doubts I'm hearing from you are hangover symptoms......just sayin'
Best Wishes

What you feel

after orgasm is not unusual and not good for any relationship...regardless of your past. You're right not to try to talk to him while you're upset.

My advice is to take your time before you try to share anything about this, other than the fact that you love him, and that you're going to find a way to get this sorted out if it's at all possible. He's just trying to love you and has never learned any other way to do it.

Meanwhile, let's help you come up with a strategy. If you don't think he'd read a book, would he read this post? http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/200908/the-pas... Also, there's an old book by a male doctor on this subject available free here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/krz/index.htm I have plenty of other ideas, too. Wink

Relationships are precious and it's way too soon to determine your potential for attachment (especially for the next couple of weeks Wink I've noticed the "hangover" can flicker for that long in some of us).

These replies are

These replies are wonderful.

I sent him the linked article. He was intrigued and said he wanted to learn more. So a very good start indeed!

Ever unfolding, ever new....

Odrade

What strikes me when I read your posts is how clearly you express, where you're at, what you want, and what's holding you back. This is great, many folks have trouble getting this far, and you are owning what's yours. On top of that it sounds like you have a receptive partner. You have much potential here. He may be a little resistant to practicing non-orgasmic lovemaking but this is a tall order to receive for most guys right out of the gate. It sounds like he will respond, given some time.

My question to you, is this. Have you shared the inner struggles you express here on this site with him as well? Trust begins with open communication, exposing who you are,no matter how scary. He needs to know those private thoughts you're having. Will he receive and support you in your struggles with intimacy,self worth and past wounding? Sounds like he would but you need to know this if you don't already. I, of course cannot know where your relationship is at but this is where I would start if you haven't gone there yet. I'm sure he's got "stuff" roaming around in him as well. I find honest exposure encourages honest exposure.

You mention being from different cultures. May I ask, what cultures are you and he from?

Thank you for your

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I think in time, he will be receptive to this. He is very open-minded and the type of person that finds real pleasure in making his partner happy.

I have communicated much of what I think. It was difficult because I often have difficulty expressing my thoughts. It is even more difficult to express feelings (when I can attach an accurate label to whatever it is I am feeling) and I seldom do. I try so hard with him because of who he is and how he affects me. He is extremely supportive and affirming. I am reluctant to lift the lids on my feelings. He is a great...hmm, I don't want to use the word "help" but that is close enough...help in this. He can identify and pinpoint feelings in me that I often dismiss as irrelevant. He has a gift of giving me a safe place so that feelings/emotions are not so threatening to me. In turn, I listen to him express his emotional complexity, his dreams (dreaminess), and his highly individualistic ways without judgment or dismissal. He is on the surface "a nice guy" but underneath that thoughtful, introspective, and full of depth. So yes, I think there is a great deal of potential here.

We are honest and open but in my mind, practicing karezza will take this to a new level. In other words, I cannot see this taking place without an open dialogue about emotional expectations, the reality of what "normal" sex is about and our personal history with it, etc. It digs out a lot from the hidden realms in the minds and hearts.

Or this is at least, my perception of it.

He is white. I am a triracial (Indian/white/black) metis from the South. I feel so comfortable around him that I often fail to "code-switch" when I talk to him. It's led to a couple of misunderstandings. *sheepish grin*

Ever unfolding, ever new....

What you want

Hi, Odrade~

I've been thinking about your post for a couple of days and wanted to say a couple of things to you.

First of all, I understand how hard it is for your lover to understand why you don't want to have orgasmic sex anymore~~men can get very attached to seeing their women orgasm, as can women when it comes to a man's ejaculation.

However, in the end, it is *your* body and you have the final word as to what you do with it. No one can make you have an orgasm (I know it *feels* like someone can make you have one, but in reality, it's your own mind that leads you to it). So if you want to try making love without it, then that is entirely up to you (and it's hard mental work if someone insists on trying to make you have one--so you might need to have a discussion about that).

But on the same hand, it's also *his* body and if he wishes to have an orgasm, that is his prerogative.

I don't see karezza as an "all or nothing" situation. The beauty of karezza is the *way* you make love~~it's a way that allows you to open up to him sexually as never before. As you continue to get greater and greater satisfaction through lovemaking, the more you want to do it. Where it becomes a partnership is when you are able to trust him enough to open up to him fully (physically and through your heart) and he is trustworthy enough to go slow and not hurt you. Once he has been invited into your deepest space, he won't want to have the door closed on him again~

The tricky part is finding out whether he would like to try to make love this way, although I can tell you that once he has given it a try, I think he will really start to love it (but no guarantees! I don't think everyone is at a point where they are ready for it, as I've seen through some of the posts on this forum).

In my own relationship, I would rather not have orgasms. I get sad and a bit off-kilter when I have them. But sometimes, after many hours and days of making slow love, my beloved might consciously decide to have one at the end of our time together. That his choice and because he doesn't seem to suffer after-effects, it's something he might do occasionally. (I have yet to ever feel that he withdraws from me emotionally, etc., but I feel that is because we have spent so much time in closeness of our souls and hearts.) His orgasm does not negate the beauty of our lovemaking nor our time together!

And I also wanted to mention to you that I was also in a marriage for 22 years~~and one of the first things I promised myself after my divorce is that I would never again try to be someone I'm not just to please another person. So if that means I want to be an orgasm-shunning woman, then so be it! And if my lover decides he'd rather be with someone to whom he can give orgasms, then so be it, too! (but I think he's pretty much forgotten about the whole "make her cum" thing, lol, thank goodness!)

Rachel

~A heart that is open to appreciate every blessing should always be bigger than the eyes that see what is missing. ~Rumi

Great post Rachel

I was thinking the same thing, and have been too busy to write it. I doubt I would have done as good a job as you did. Where should I add this to KK d'ya think?

Thank you

Thank you, Marnia~~

I'm not sure, maybe under "How to explain this to a date or partner"?

(and feel free to correct my spelling and/or missing words that I just noticed!)

Rachel

~A heart that is open to appreciate every blessing should always be bigger than the eyes that see what is missing. ~Rumi

Rachel, Thanks for the

Rachel,

Thanks for the reply.

I agree. Men can get very attached to a woman's orgasms. I finally explained what could happen with me having orgasms. He was disappointed at first but when I let him know that the side-effects left me feeling disconnected from him, that caught his attention. He prizes our connection and doesn't want that to be disrupted in any way, so he said it was fine with him.

I made sure to only say this from my point of view, what happens in my mind, and body. I didn't want him to get the feeling that he must do this or else. I think the biggest hurdle is, well was, trying to communicate to him about why I didn't want to have orgasms.

The past few times we have been together, things have been different. He still has orgasms (I haven't pressed him on this) but he is okay with me not having them. He is especially happy that he doesn't see the agitation and the post-orgasm Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde switch.

"The beauty of karezza is the *way* you make love~~it's a way that allows you to open up to him sexually as never before. As you continue to get greater and greater satisfaction through lovemaking, the more you want to do it. Where it becomes a partnership is when you are able to trust him enough to open up to him fully (physically and through your heart) and he is trustworthy enough to go slow and not hurt you. Once he has been invited into your deepest space, he won't want to have the door closed on him again~"

Yes, you eloquently phrased what I touched on in my reply to Darryl. It is definitely something to take slow. Built on trust and a willingness to be fully open to one's partner.

I don't mean to sound hokey but I think this could be life-changing for he and I.

Ever unfolding, ever new....

Not hokey!

It *is* life-changing when sex goes from something you do to "get off" or release energy to something you do to nourish each other. I hope you both find it as soul-satisfying as I do~

Rachel

~A heart that is open to appreciate every blessing should always be bigger than the eyes that see what is missing. ~Rumi

It's been a year and time for

It's been a year and time for an update and question.

Anyone have thoughts or experiences with cuddling an ex-partner? Unfortunately, things didn't work out with my partner and we are no longer together. Surprisingly for me, I miss being close to him. I'm not sure if cuddling with him is wise, though since I am trying to maintain some emotional distance from him at this point.