In need of guidance

Submitted by Frank on
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Dear all,

I've received some comments lately about my approach being that of repression. I accept that I am naive and I may seem to have nothing more than a fantasy of being Stoic, but I would really appreciate it if readers could point out to me why they think my approach is that of repression. I wanted to use the words "should" and "must" in the sense that, if I don't do this, I'll face serious consequences, not as in duty or obligation. I was conscious of using should/must, but then I couldn't think of a better word -- although now I think I should have *wanted* to recover, not have to.

Anyway, today was a very nice day. I did like 15 miles of bicycling, my locality is really very bad for cycling, there are so many potholes and the people here drive crazily, and there are slopes all over the place, and my cycle isn't geared. Okay, the list could go on, but the biking episode of today wasn't pleasant, but it added to my self-esteem. I worked moderately hard today, well, harder than any of last week's days.

I really need guidance. I don't know at all if I'm following the right approach. I know that I can stretch my abstinence period to like 4 more days for sure (today is the 11th day). But then it's all becoming a question of *stretching* the abstinence period, *not complete recovery*. I've read most articles on this site (I haven't read many blog entries though), but I haven't really found an approach. I hope someone can guide me.

Thanks for your patience.

Comments

clarification

Hey man,

glad you are out exercising..thats really important. You don't sound at all naive to me, in fact you seem like a super bright guy, albeit maybe a bit inexperienced due to your age. Anyway, let me clarify why i wrote that about repression (Based on some of your words below...)
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"I value detachment and freedom from emotions, hence I prefer reason to control emotion, rather than the other way round. In other words, my ideologies are those of Stoicism. But that in no way means that I won't please my wife or that she'll be dissatisfied with the marriage, I certainly won't do any such thing, I will value the relationship.

I am confused as to how you think of sexual energy as beautiful and dynamic. I've thought of it as not a very good activity to invest energy into, that there are higher and better things to do (intellectual pursuits like philosophy)"
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Ok, maybe I am wrong, but i got the sense/ituition from reading the above that you are choosing reason/intellect as your master and abandoning feeling/emotion. I can understand this, since its not being able to deal with/express emotions well that probably leads us to porn/addictions in the first place. So, by placing intellect on such a pedestal at the expense of emotions, you ARE safe BUT you aren't learning the skill to deal with or even enjoy emotions, which might be at the root of the problem. So how long are you safe for?

It sounds like you think emotions are nonsense and of no value, especially compared to mighty intellect. I am reading this wrong? If so, please clarify for me. So, my opinion was that by detaching yourself so much from feeling and emotions, it is a form of repression. I say this because it's natural for humans to feel and its healthy to have emotions AND since the body/psyche always seeks homeostasis, it will always win and the problem might re-emerge. That's just my take on it, I could be wrong. It just seems like you are going to an extreme and even though its the opposite extreme (giving your emotions free reign) it still ain't good, so to speak. I just ask you to think if a person who refuses to feel deeply can ever experience joy? what's the point of going through life like a robot?

I don't claim to have the answer and honestly i dont think there is any '-ism' out there that is the ultimate answer. The answer is different for each person, no one can tell you the ultimate truth and if they say they can, they are either trying to sell you something or are full of BS. Realization of your true, original perfect nature can ONLY be re-known by YOU and you alone. I think if you pay attention, you can figure this out on your own, but some words of guidance never hurt along the way. Just trust your own voice above all, thats my point.

Good luck, guy..good to have you here..
M

glad to see you two talking

I was wondering what kind of conversation might come up if you two started conversing. Maybe you can help eachother more than those of us not struggling with porn addiction.

I have a new topic I'd like to open up and address to both of you. The general impression I've gotten in this culture is that porn is justified because it is a very healthy and natural way for a man to satisfy his immense sexuality, sensuality, and physicality, which is far superior and more robust than that of woman's desire for these things (an aside - I do not in any way hold the view that woman's essential sexuality or sensuality is in any way less developed than a mans - but this is a different topic we can wrangle over at another time if you want.)

This claim is especially funny to me when viewed in light of the actual characteristics of the few men I have known well who have been addicted to porn and/or going to strip clubs. These men were less comfortable with their sexuality and the actual act of sex than other men I have been with. They were also generally more depressed and emotionally repressed, as well as very brainy and otherwise intelligent men. Both of them - as well as you, looking4balance - have admitted to me that porn is not about sensuality, but about power.

Could you both please enlighten me as to your perceptions of what the real, true appeal of porn is, especially what kind of power plays turn you on and why. I know you may not want to go into the details and may think it's private, but I would like to know your general sense of what power plays attract you and why.

My guess is that porn provides a fake illusion of invitation, availability, and conquest to the viewer, thus providing him with a sense of potency that he may not find in other areas of life. Is this the case, or am I totally off the mark?

ok, I'll bite

hey, great topic. forgive me, this is long (thats what she said):P

well, I cant speak for all he-men (hehe), but for me I will tell you why I think I use porn. The women I have been with have told me I am handsome, have a nice physique, and had given me 'high' marks' for the most part in the physical part of conventional of sex (i.e. easily bring her to orgasm, nice 'equipment', etc). I am not shy and can speak easily with women I don't know and I have no problem getting dates. But what's going on INSIDE is an entirely different matter.

I would say the leading reason for starting and getting porn addicted lies mainly in 2 areas for me: (1) in an intense fear of rejection and general feeling of powerless and, (2) never having learned to handle/process overwhelming emotions. Let me explain a bit about (1) and (2). these are just MY observations so others may have other experiences.

(1) When using porn, there is no rejection from women,and you can see as many women as you like naked and performing sex. The fantasy is I am the one in the video and so, vicariously, I am 'having sex' with whatever women I want (it's a stretch, but for me thats the fantasy and for that time, the brain plays along).

"But, you just said you have no problem getting dates and having sex, so why need to escape rejection?" you ask. Well, thats a little bit of a vicious circle. From childhood having trained the orgasm response to come quickly (out of fear of getting caught by Mom) AND the self-esteem I place on the outcome of the event, sex becomes an anxiety-filled endeavor which can lead to sometimes coming before i like, which I interpret as a shameful event. Thus turning more to porn to avoid that kind of anxiety but increasing the likelihood of it happening again in the future.

What types of porn are arousing? For me, I don't like the modern trend of porn that is especially cruel and degrading to women, unfortunately that is a growing trend. Without getting specific, I seem to be most turned on by viewing plain old oral sex preformed on men. Obvious Freudian associations aside, thats what does it for me. Anyway, I wonder if its not only the control I find appealing (both mine in being able to see whatever women I want AND the performer's control over his partner) but the ACCEPTANCE, literal acceptance of the man into the women's mouth. I wonder if to me somehow that became the ultimate acceptance of a person from another. When i say control over his partner, I don't mean literal, I mean the woman usually shown is clearly in a submissive role in that she is clearly there just for the pleasure of the man. She makes no demands, has no needs of her own, and makes no judgements. Maybe the'control' isn't the the right word here...

As for reason (2), the porn fantasy, the cocoon, is one of no sense of time or space (hours can pass in a seeming instant) and so when feeling lonely, anxious, angry, whatever non-desirable emotion, porn can numb out those feeling and turn them into sexual ones, thrilling dopamine ones. So, in this way it functions the same as drugs or alcohol for me, just those don't happen to do it for me as much, so I used porn to escape.

I am not sure if I answered your question but if I missed anything, please feel free to ask specific questions. I don't mind as long as the moderators don't. :)

power vs. control

I wanted to comment on your description of getting turned on most by depictions of women performing oral sex on men.

I remember shortly after my best friend became a lesbian, she made a comment about how blow jobs were so demeaning to a woman. I laughed in her face. Of course, they COULD be. But for me giving blowjobs is one of the most enjoyable, empowering things I can do. I have never felt submissive in doing it, but rather very powerful. Masterful generosity is very fun. Knowing how to totally serve and please someone completely without any expectation of return is one of the greatest highs of life. When I give blow jobs, I am not under the command of a man - quite the opposite. Usually it results in him turning to putty, and he is able to relax more fully into his pleasure because he knows I will treat him well, maybe better than he could have instructed.

As you said, maybe "control" isn't the right word here. In oral sex the man doesn't have control, that's probably why it's so enjoyable. He doesn't have to be active, doesn't have to perform, doesn't have to please the woman, and doesn't have to display potency or self-mastery.

All of these conversations just reinforce the idea that we must completely reconstruct our notions of what real power is. People will always be attracted to power, and there's nothing wrong with that. But we must create broader definitions of power. We usually only think in power-over terms. But the courage it takes to fully receive someone is equally powerful - whether you are a man receiving the fully loving attention of a woman giving a blow job, or a woman receiving your potent man deep inside you or as he goes down on you. I think we can only be truly powerful if we know how to experience both ends of the spectrum, giving and receiving fully.

Also, being passive is not at all the same things as being receptive. Many passive women have not found the power of the receptive principle.

i just noticed the title of

i just noticed the title of that post you responded too (I'll bite) kind of funny considering where the conversation went :P

That's really an interesting look at how you can be powerful in giving, even more than in taking in some ways. The oral sex in porn, unfortunately, is laced with the man controlling the situation with his demands and instructions and general roughness during the act. The way you described the loving, selfless act sounds much nicer, and more empowering for women than what most men see in porn.

For me, still I think the attraction represents the total acceptance of a man by a woman. For if this person is taking me into her mouth, then she must approve of me on some deep level (at least that might be my screwy thought). The mouth seems more private and intimate for some reason. Also just the visual of it is very stimulating to which there may be no explaining.

'Masterful generosity' has a nice ring to it..
:)

What could possibly be sexy

What could possibly be sexy about being with someone who has no choice? You said, "The oral sex in porn, unfortunately, is laced with the man controlling the situation with his demands and instructions and general roughness during the act." Is this what you are attracted to, or just an example of the violent trend you see in most porn? If it is the kind of porn you enjoy but it is embarrasing to you that this actually turns you on, I'd really appreciate it if you could allow yourself the vulnerability of admitting it enough to really explore what that is about. I would like to understand it. But maybe I never can or should try to.

It seems that if a man really wants a woman to accept him, harrasing her or bullying her would cause the opposite effect. Why not be sweet to the woman so that she want's to take you in? This seems so obvious it's almost redundant to bring it up at all.

I realize these power instincts don't follow logic. Imbalanced sexual politics have been played out for so long that many women are unresponsive to men. Maybe this has resulted in men feeling so frusterated, they must force acceptance. But this will only make things worse. Forced acceptance is not acceptance at all.

I think it's really ironic that so many men think of themselves as more sexual than women. Sounds to me like they are mistaking their resentment of women for sexuality.

Just to be clear, I said

Just to be clear, I said this is the way oral sex is depicted in most porn nowdays. Since that's mostly was available, that's what gets seen frequently. I don't get particularly turned on by that at all, it's just the trend. I had said before, I don't like this more and more popular form, I find it degrading and disparaging to women. Of course i have a choice not to watch it, but now we are back to talking about addiction again.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this type of porn - its resentment of women, clearly, and not sexuality. I agree 100%.

Please don't confuse me with being a representative of all men or even the porn industry. I am just a guy trying to get healthy and overcome a harmful habit. I don't have the answers as to why, just the effects and possible personal causes.

I don't think it possible for women (or anyone really) to truly understand/relate the mind of men are turned on by this - its just too foreign. Could someone say they can understand the mind of Hitler, for example? I am not saying these users of porn are akin to Hitler in any way, just that it might be so foreign or bizzare, there is no rational part to latch on to for understanding. Best to just be aware it exists and avoid it at all costs. Just my take.

thanks for you insights, as always

okay, i'm clear

I'm glad to see you aren't attracted to porn that degrades women, tho I still wonder to what extent it's a matter of degree. What are the effects of you subjecting yourself to such imagery over a long period of time? Maybe the results are that although it is still generally distasteful, it is still tolerable and therefore marginally acceptable. The results of this could still be very damaging. even though it may not influence you to actually desire such dynamics with women, it informs what is seen as the norm and therefore unchangeable.

My mother said that when I was about three or four years old I found a book of Japanese erotica done in woodcuts. I hadn't learned about what sex was until that point, and my mom explained it to me and then let me look through the rest of the book, which took me about an hour to get through, before I ran off to tell my girlfriends the hilarious news.

I remember when I was twelve or so I came upon some playgirl magazines my mom had. I snickered at my mom and she claimed to just be using them as models for her paintings. She had a few other magazines of real couples making love, and said she enjoyed them. I leafed through the magazines myself and very much enjoyed looking at the wide variety of men's bodies.

When my mother finished a painting of a full-length nude of my father reclining on the bed with the sunlight falling over his body in lines from the shades, she exhibited it in the local Eros show, along with some paintings of sacred yonis in watercolor. In this small town of 12,000, some women from my father's engineering office came to check out the painting and my handsome father without his clothes on.

Every now and then, my parents rent an erotic film they've heard from friends is good. It sounds like there's a real dearth of quality porn or erotica out there, so they do this seldom.

But addiction is a totally separate issue from whether or not it is healthy to enjoy visually stimulating pictures. Addiction seems to take away selectivity or criterion of quality, much as a pothead will smoke shitty weed or scrape the nasty resin from a pipe just to get high.

porn - the resin hits of erotica

sounds apropos,no?

I agree that even though I don't actively support this kind of erotica, I may have become somewhat callous to it just from exposure. I dont want that to happen. i want to always be outraged and disgusted by humiliaton, which is appropriate. Thankfully, this tin man still has a heart left so it's not too late.

I also agree that addiction takes away selectivity and the concern for quality or essence are non-existent. When you want to get high badly enough or space out with porn, anything will do, unfortunately.

Sounds like you grew up in a home that was really comfortable and mature about sexuality. My parents were of the 'Don't ask, Don't tell variety'. We never had any kind of discussion, not even the birds and the bees. Playboy, unfortunately was my birds and bees talk, as it is probably at lot of boys who don't have parents who have themselves dealt with their sexuality in an open, honest and shame-free way.

Alpha male programming

I suspect that most male mammals are programmed to get *some* dopamine rush from dominating others. After all some of our primate cousins operate on the alpha male system. That means that evolution wants you to act "alpha-ish" so you can pass on more genes.

Frankly, I think there's probably some left-over "I like to be dominated" feelings in lots of women, too, when confronted with an alpha male - which are just as confusing to them!! After all, that alpha male is the mate your genes want you to mate with...since it improves the chances of your offspring becoming alpha males - and dominating jerks... ;-).

The issue then is, "do we want our genes calling the shots in our love lives, just because they bribe us with titillating feelings when we do their bidding?" The whole sacred sexuality theory is that, by finding fulfillment without giving into the "fertilization titillation signals," we ultimately can chart our courses without frustration or intense feelings of temptation.

Unfortunately, there's a tendency among many of us, and porn users especially perhaps, to think that "if it turns me on, that's just the way I am and I can't help it. End of thought process."

By learning ancient wisdom about sexual management, or even more about the reward circuitry of the brain, it's possible to begin to understand why we have options, if we're willing to retrain.

Whether you're turned on by domination, or being dominated, all that begins to lose its grip, if you don't reward yourself with orgasm for every bizarre titillation that tweaks your genitals. That frees your heart, and loving interaction ultimately is more nurturing than titillation-to-orgasm. It takes a bit of patience and a willing partner, though.

How about sending Your Intellect on holidays?

............Possibly with one-way ticket? Please!, franc.stoic, do not read any arrogance in my suggestion, for any is intended. I have given this very suggestion to myself many times in my life, when increasingly realizing that my Intellect was just a pathetic thing always engaged in making so much noise for the purpose of covering up the voice of my Soul.

In full sincerity, i do not understand what would be, in a state of health, the function of the Intellect in the economy of a Human Being. But this strong impression i have: that if our Souls awake from their slumber - and they will awake one day! - chances are that our Intellects will find themselves out of their jobs, and perhaps this is the reason of their evergoing argueing, speculating, theorizing, philosophying along with their vociferousness and verbosity.

Quieting our Intellects - and in so doing increasing our chances to hear the weak voices of our Souls - is the best strategy to employ when we find ourselves lost in the middle of nowhere. When we have no solutions to the problems we are confronted with. And it happens to be my personal experience that this strategy is effectively supported by a diet capable of producing - and maintaining - an alkaline condition of the blood. Indeed i can say that most of the Intellect's agitation and most of the sexual aberration has its roots in an acidic condition of our blood.

You may consider to read my two recent interactions i have had with William Cerf on his blog entry "30 days of no masturbation".

My best wishes to You!

jb Mirabile-caruso.

Reply

First off, let me honestly thank you for responding in such a caring manner. I really value your comments.

Let me start by replying to looking4balance's first post. You are almost correct in your interpretation of what I'd written (except a part which is quoted below). A little about my background. I am economically middle-class and have been raised in a conservative environment (not Christian).

I can remember that from 6th grade (I was honestly innocent till then, I was a geek) onwards (till 8th grade) I started viewing pornographic material and ended up asking 5 girls, out of which 2 accepted (and we did have intimate non-sexual physical contact), only to dump me soon. In 9th grade I decided to give it all up, I will no longer chase girls and be such a pervert. After that I discovered masturbation and have been an addict for 3 years (I'm in 11th grade now). I was doing excellent academically and in extra-curricular activities, so no one around me probably noticed that something was wrong deep down. After that is the typical addiction cycle.

Hence, during my philosophical thinking (which began at about 9th grade), I discovered the philosophy of Stoicism and have aimed at embracing and following it all along. I am confused about emotions myself, because there is a very thin line between letting emotions exist and having them control you. In the past month, I have met 3 girls from my school and we have been very good friends. But I decided not to pursue any romantic relationship at all from now on, to just be friends (just as I am friends with boys), considering all the bad things I had to go through in my earlier romantic relationship attempts. Hence I decided to start with eliminating emotions (except that of high respect for intellect) and then I would think about reinstalling emotions into my system later. Today is the 12th day of abstinence, and an important number that is, because 12 days is my maximum period of abstinence ever.

Can you suggest ways that I let emotion exist, but let it not control me in any way? Emotions are definitely needed for man's survival, but now that humans have evolved to a stage where they are gifted with intellect, I believe we must let intellect reign.

[quote]It sounds like you think emotions are nonsense and of no value, especially compared to mighty intellect. I am reading this wrong? If so, please clarify for me. So, my opinion was that by detaching yourself so much from feeling and emotions, it is a form of repression.[/quote]

I value emotions, but I value intellect more. Emotion is a very good servant, but a very bad master (although it wouldn't have been so 50000 years ago). I don't think I should be detached from emotion, I think that it should be under intellect's control.

[quote]I can understand this, since its not being able to deal with/express emotions well that probably leads us to porn/addictions in the first place[/quote]

I agree with that completely. You are correct -- I need to learn to handle emotion rather than just get rid of it, because it is our inherent nature. Maybe the ultimate thing is to be detached, but I don't think that's possible at this stage, because first I have to learn to control emotion. Thanks a lot, looking4balance!

Now let me reply to hotspring:

Interesting question, I'd like to answer it.

[quote]My guess is that porn provides a fake illusion of invitation, availability, and conquest to the viewer, thus providing him with a sense of potency that he may not find in other areas of life.[/quote]

Absolutely correct, you've chosen just the precise words. On the 12th day I've come to a stage where even if I am exposed to sexual material, I can feel an emotional switch inside me -- whether to get turned on or not (although that ability extends only to a certain limit). On the 10th and 11th day, I was tempted to get myself tempted to watch porn and to "just mildly stimulate the genitals", and I did give in, although to a limit that did not violate my conscience outright.

What used to tempt was a young female (preferably 18-25 years of age), with a very soft, slim, curvy body, firm round breasts and an inviting expression. And then all the fantasies began -- I hardly ever had fantasies like what they show in porn these days, because I felt disgusted at them, although sadly that disgust could not destroy the temptation -- I focused on kind loving inviting girls who convinced me they loved/cared about me, they kissed me deeply and we had loving intercourse, and we were together sharing pleasure and really in some sort of deep love (I hope all this description is not overly explicit). What really tempted me was that here's somebody who cares for me so much (not like all those other girls who don't like me), here's something that's always available easily, here's something you can just plunge into and experience "real pleasure". And that did tempt me, it made me compare all the trouble I was going through (because of my misdirected curiosity) with this imaginary pleasure-providing world which you can depend on always.

looking4balance's two reasons are perfectly correct:

[quote](1) in an intense fear of rejection and general feeling of powerless and, (2) never having learned to handle/process overwhelming emotions.[/quote]

jb Mirabile-caruso:

Certainly, although this is an intellectual statement rather than an experienced/discovered truth, the soul is at a greater level than intellect. Today humans have ascended to the level of soul, higher than logic and emotion. It goes like emotion->intellect->soul, and at this stage of evolution we can be at the level of soul, although many people are still at the level of emotion. To reach soul, however, I'll first have to ascend to the level of the intellect. There are various interpretations of the soul though, most of them describing the soul as divinity. An intellectual way to look at it would be to call the soul our conscience, but probably when I experience what the soul really is, I'll have a broader view.

I'll agree with the point of importance of quality of food intake you mentioned in the 30 Days of No Masturbation post. In fact, Hindus believe that the tongue is an important organ to control, and this refers to eating and speaking (speaking broadly interpreted as thinking). Since yesterday morning, I've been refusing to eat any food that will not boost my energy and thinking power. Last night, I only had an apple and an orange for dinner. I eat vegetarian curry and rice for lunch. I'm planning to add salads to my diet now.

Thank you all once again for writing. Do write back with more, I love debating and really just exchanging ideas.

Using the tricks of addiction unto itself

I'd just like to add that one route I followed was that I noticed how addictive habits actually gripped onto me. The moment of temptation was essentially imagination, because whatever stimulation you go through because of being exposed to sexually explicit information is an interpretation of the stimuli, it's not like you're forced to react that way.

This notion suggests two solutions:

1. Normalize your view of females.
What is so attractive and stimulating about a female? Every female (=every other human) has got breasts and the typical curvy shape. Now I look at supposedly-sexy females the way I would look at a human (be it an amusing little pre-schooler, a tireless construction worker, an elderly priest, etc.) -- just as plain humans, although certainly I fall off often. One way I reached this state was by controlling my sexual system and not having it react to stimuli to which it was used to reacting. Then I questioned, well, what's going on here? What is this attraction? To the extent that I almost nullified the concept of beauty -- I came to think that beauty is purely a function of prevalent social attitudes (confirmed after I read this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/04/world/africa/04mauritania.html?ex=1187...).

2. Imagine a higher, simpler and better lifestyle.
I personally am aligned to the philosophy of the Stoics (in logic, metaphysics and ethics). Although I have lacked in doing this exercise, I want to do this often now, integrating it with my physical exercise.

The challenge that one faces while rewiring one's brain is that of breaking free of the bonds that had been created previously. During the transformation from one paradigm to another, there are tendencies to fall back into the original paradigm, because within the original paradigm you relatively felt no need to change from the paradigm (your actions are a result of what you value most). How do we make this transition between paradigms? No fire can ever be produced without a spark. By nature's grace, when we fall into trouble, we don't just sit around crying, we eventually go out and seek help. Thus, by continuous failure, we become intelligent (=knowing what can benefit us and what cannot, and behaving accordingly). This exposure to help provides that spark, which eventually illumines the mind. This gives us the reason/motivation to transform, giving us a glimpse of the glory that lies in the nobler paradigm.

[quote=Henry David Thoreau]
I know of no more encouraging fact than the unquestionable ability of man to elevate his life by conscious endeavor.
[/quote]

Confused about approach

I was wondering if I could be pointed out to about approaches of recovery from masturbation addiction. I'm still confused about what repression exactly is. Could anyone provide me examples?

fascinating

I know the men in this forum can't speak for all men, and that generalized conversations about the dynamics between men and women can be damaging in some cases. Nevertheless I would like to move forward with this conversation in a somewhat generalized way.

I would like to know why you think there is an increasing trend towards pornography that is cruel and degrading to women. Since I know you are not a violent man, M, I know it's a lot to ask you to explain this. But culturally there has been so much violence towards women, and it has so negatively affected their receptivity to men, that I think this conversation is not complete without bringing this up. Yes - women have the opening and so are really the 'selectors' in deciding who they might let impregnate them. This fact alone - that consent is needed by the woman - could cause impotence, and easily explains why men may go to porn to be around women who are inviting, and indiscriminately accepting of the man. However, because of the intense violence imposed on women by men over an enormous time span, is it any wonder that women may not be totally inviting to a man?

This problem is very real and very serious and I think it needs to be addressed. I personally feel that what is perceived in this culture to be a very natural womanly quality of lower sexual drive and orgasmic ability in women is nothing more than a huge residue of fear and mistrust of men accumulated through lifetimes that does not allow a woman to fully let a man in and please her most essential, ecstatic self. Many women have made huge strides in overcoming this literal pile of shit placed at the openings to their true selves, and have regained their orgasmic abilities - with the help of many caring, loving men.

I have noticed that by far the best lovemaking I have experienced is when I am fully accepting the man into my whole being. This is not passivity. Women will be able to TRULY receive a man - physically, emotionally, spiritually - when he has reached a point of being able to give himself fully physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Why on earth should a woman fully receive a man who only wants to give as little of himself to her as possible that he can get away with while still getting laid?

I have been with many men who have had the "equipment" and the technical know-how to get me off very easily. But I have also had plenty of sex where the "performance" came off well, but I did not really receive them emotionally at all.

Let's please admit here that men want more than a feeling of potency and sexual prowess (being able to hold off orgasm, being able to give the woman an orgasm). Why do men think that it is in any way possible to be fully received, without being fully giving?

I am deeply angry and hurt with this entire situation. Stand up, men, and show me the potency of your full being in answering these questions, and give it to me, how you really see it! I have spent hours on this forum trying to understand men and support you in your struggles. Now kindly try to help me out in my own malnourished view of men.

Hi Hotspring

Wow, that sounded like an intense experience you had. Almost like a cleansing from a topic that is admittedly heartbreaking and nauseous in terms of spirit and soul.

I will try to share some more thoughts. you wrote:

"I would like to know why you think there is an increasing trend towards pornography that is cruel and degrading to women. Since I know you are not a violent man, M, I know it's a lot to ask you to explain this"

That's a hard one to answer, as I wrote I am not attracted to that kind of porn and I think it's troubling its getting more popular. One reason I came across from reading I believe either on this site or on a link from here, was about how when testosterone is present during the dopamine arousal, its can be even more addictive. The porn guys know this, so by mixing images of violence with porn, they are ensuring the clients stay hooked.

Which came first, the supply or the demand? It could also be part of just an increasing violent culture we live in. Violence is so celebrated, especially in our American society, but not just us. People get used to levels of violence, so we need more and more (to get the dopamine hit perhaps? are we addcited to violence as well as sex?)

Last thought is, I think we men are deep down scared to death of women, even the macho-man types. You hold the key to something we (men) all really seem to want (sex? synthesis with our feminine side?) and the fact you can choose to give it or not give it suggests enormous power. Maybe the violence depicted is a demonstration of resentment we have over that power.

I think a LOT of "degrading" or "cruel" porn users (i just suspect this) probably had many bad experiences with mommy or early girlfriends, women in their life. Again, this is a kind of imagined revenge perhaps? I don't know, just a thought.

I hope some of this helps..

BTW, here is a great ant-porn website with many great stories and resources. I found it helpful when I had urges to look at porn. Might give you some more answers. Kind of depressing and sickening though, like damp seaweed (i like damp seaweed by the way!) so be careful of your energy state.

http://www.oneangrygirl.net/antiporn.html

Let me know if any more questions, happy to help :)

healthy emotional release

Frank and M -

I just had a really intense emotional experience after writing that last post. I just cried from the very depths of my being my pain and sadness over this situation. It was very brief, very intense, and very healthy, lasting about five minutes. Alongside it I also had the desire to vomit, but was unable to. This is interesting. I have participated in a few ceremonies in the peyote way church, and they call vomiting "getting well." Some part of me was not yet able to get well or "let it go."

I am not usually a particularly emotional female. I conside my ability to fully feel my feelings now to be a the result of a long journey of slow integration between my mental, spiritual, and emotional selves.

a matter of degree

Looking4balance -

It may be unfair for me to ask you to help find answers to such a huge problem, one for which you may not consider yourself responsible, since your form of objectifying women is not quite as violent as those of some. But you have already admitted to enjoying the objectification of women purely for self-gratification, which in my mind is a form of the same kind of violence, tho of a lesser degree.

Referring me to a site set up by an angry woman is not what I need. I don't need to know about, identify with, or get more self-righteous and angry with other women about how screwed up things are. I've done plenty of that in my life and it only serves to further erode my attitudes towards men. I need to hear from MEN that they actually do care about something more than themselves.

This is really quite funny. Right now I am feeling like an impossible to please girlfriend, like my demands that you discuss this with more passion are just too much - why not go back to look at porn rather than spend time on this site dealing with a touchy emotional female? It's not fun, it's not sexy, and it doesn't give you a hard-on.

Well, because the problem you are trying to struggle with is directly related to the one I am struggling with. If men and women aren't willing to confont eachother and resolve the problems with eachother, we'll stay in our own nice, safe little worlds - you going back to caring only about your own little problem, and I to some feminist website to take relief in other women's similar anger.

I don't at all think the points I raised about women's ability to be receptive are only relevant to my own suffering. I brought this point up because it is central to the discussion taking place about male potency and addiction. My question is still: why do men think that it is in any way possible to be fully received, without being fully giving?

I'm sorry..I thought your

I'm sorry..I thought your question was simply about why do men use violent porn, to which i thought i gave a few ideas about. I didn't see that the main question was about "why do men think that it is in any way possible to be fully received, without being fully giving?"

That might be a bit too abstract/broad for me to comment on. Perhaps this might be a rhetorical question to which I can't help with. For now, I will comment only on my experience since its all i can confirm. Sorry about the website. In retrospect, i guess is a better tool for porn users to learn to see the damage porn does to women, than for a woman who already knows about these issues. Sorry, just trying to help! :)

I don't mind talking about this at all, especially with a touchy emotional female :P . I just can't seem to provide the answer you seem to want to hear. Doing the best I can, please bear with me! :)

Have any of you tried asking the Divine for the answer?

It seems that our egos - stuck as they are in our limited perspectives, and further narrowed by our genders - may not be able to summon all of the necessary healing insights to resolve this alienation between the sexes.

You all know what I got as the Answer when I asked. *chuckle* What do you get? You don't have to believe in God to answer. You just have to believe that the human mind is capable of receiving higher inspiration when it seeks it. There are many examples of people who received such insights.

Why not try it?

Reply

[quote=hotspring]why do men think that it is in any way possible to be fully received, without being fully giving?[/quote]

That's quite a broad question. In the context of sexuality, I suppose that at the heart of this act is sheer insecurity on the part of the male. Maybe they fear total commitment to one woman. Perhaps they think that to be pleased sexually by the woman, they might have to please her in many different ways (non-sexual ways, that is). This is related to their notion of a woman as an object/instrument of pleasure (like a prostitute), rather than an equal companion. I may have misunderstood the question, or I could have even answered incorrectly because I am neither a citizen nor resident of the US -- I confess ignorance of its history and culture.

[quote=hotspring]I conside my ability to fully feel my feelings now to be a the result of a long journey of slow integration between my mental, spiritual, and emotional selves.[/quote]

For some reason, it seems that it was so easy getting addicted, that you didn't know all these major changes in your brain were taking place. Now when you have to beat the addiction, you realize how deeply influenced you were by the addiction without your knowledge.

It seems the ancient prediction of the Kali Yuga was correct after all. (I may be a little out of context there, because of my alignment with Hindu thought)

Thanks, William

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. I look forward to your further insights. I have to go now but I do appreciate it.

And thanks, too, looking4balance and frank. We may not be able to sort it out, but just the willingness to be open is worth a lot. And maybe I just needed to write it out so as to have my little "cleansing reaction." Ultimately I realize that how I view men is fully dependent on me, not on how you all respond, just as your ability to become free from porn can only really come from your own self, with a little encouragement along the way.

Good luck everyone.

Thanks for raising the question Hotspring

Any woman who truly loves men has to reach for answers on this one. It is indeed a painful tragedy if the sexes can't unite in a way that leads to mutual trust and profound nourishment (can't think of a better word). The realization you had about the deep sadness of our circumstances created an equally deep sense of despair in me years ago. I used to feel like I always ended up with my nose pushed up against the glass...able to see my ideal relationship (because I could sense the potential for it in myself and my adored one), but unable to *live* it.

When Spirit started to lead me to the many clues (now on this website) about sacred sexuality and its power to end the separation between the sexes, I was sure of one thing: if, indeed, this IS the way to heal the alienation that naturally builds between the sexes due to fertilization-driven sex, then it's clear why humanity is still trapped in matter.

We humans are SURE it can't be the answer. Even though sexual control and spiritual attainment have long been linked. And even though the recently discovered brain science about dopamine highs and lows...combined with knowledge that all of our feelings are projected outward, shifting our perceptions of each other and the world, certainly confirm that fertilization-driven sex COULD, indeed, keep the sexes uneasy about each other.

Anyway, all of this made me feel safe about loving men completely again. Once you understand WHY someone acts the way he does, it is easy to keep your heart open and spend your efforts on sharing the insights you've learned. No more despair! And the same advice may assist discouraged men. I know it seems like a big sacrifice (controlled intercourse), but joy and peace of mind and the feeling that it is safe to love are big gifts.