Adventures of an average guy (old post)

Submitted by justthisguy on
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Ok. So I posted on the forum yesterday. But, it was suggested that I might start my own blog. So here goes.
The original question was "Can karezza be faked by a psychopath?"

Marnia made a good comment saying that there was a healing power there in karezza. Interesting concept, though. Generally narcissism and other forms of psychopathy are considered untreatable. Maybe though, karezza is such a powerful thing that the energy that flows can be considered therapeutic for psychopaths. Dunno.

Cadethefaun mentioned that he had been involved with a narcissist. He gives an accurate description of the energy drain involved, so I cannot doubt him. At least I know other people have experienced this.

I think I might have been misunderstood though. I have no intention of going back to my ex(Let's call her "Soulless Bitch"). God forbid!

I do have a fear that I may attract a similar personality type or have a predisposition to having a toxic relationship. Maybe a better question would be to ask if karezza can be used as a sort of test for this reason. Or is karezza such a bonding behavior that it should not be used until your lover has passed the utmost psychological scrutiny?

My current relationship is a long distance one. I traveled to "Country Y" to meet a beautiful woman that I met online( Let's call her "Acrobatic Wonder Lover"). As you can imagine by her name, things were pretty good in bed during the few months that I spent with her. She does not seem to have any of the same attributes as Soulless Bitch. But, there have been a few red relationship flags and I am concerned about: (A) Am I now oversensitive to these red flags? or (B)Am I falling into a new trap.
The flags in concern are mainly jealousy issues, so maybe karezza will help deal with those things.

I will say that because of the intensity of the sex we were having, the relationship has felt like a bit of an addiction. Are the feelings of emotional bonding and addiction related? Are they somehow a negative and positive of the same thing?

Topic:

Comments

Hmmm....

Well, I'm glad you're considering applying karezza with a partner who has a soul. Smile

My view is that a lot of unhealthy co-dependent, jealous behavior is a product of the neurochemical cycle after sex. The "ripples" cause gut-level feelings that can be surprisingly strong and irrational. If we feel uneasy and aren't sure why, it's normal to look "out there" for a cause. And so these feelings often get projected onto our partners.

The only way to know if that's the issue is to experiment for a while. If an issue is purely a product of neurochemical ripples it'll evaporate once they're out of the picture. Trouble is, Ms Wonder Lover may, herself, be hooked on orgasm and on the thrill of dishing out those amazing orgasms. (I know I used to be. :) ) So it may be hard for her to switch gears.

What's your plan here?

I should begin by saying

I should begin by saying that I haven't read the book yet. So, the things that I know or presume to know about karezza may be inaccurate.

The concept of using bonding behaviors is very attractive to me as this is very much what I was missing during my years with *SB.
In practice, avoiding orgasm is something that might actually be relatively easy for me. Because I my penis has been skinned(circumcised) and rendered less sensitive than it otherwise should be, I sometimes have a difficult time achieving orgasm by means of the usual thrusting. I have learned to work around this problem by having my partner push other buttons, thus achieving orgasm.
So, avoiding orgasm for me may be just a matter of not pushing those particular buttons.

I can't really speak for the beautiful Acrobat. I don't really know what's going on in her head while we are in bed except that seems to be enjoying herself. She does not seem to have orgasms in the classic vaginal throbbing sense. Of course I am a considerate lover and ask her what she likes. She responds well to all sorts of stimulation. But, I have not asked her flat out "Are you having an orgasm?" I accept that everybody is different and have been content with that.

Marnia, I think you might be correct that the Wonder Lover might just like the thrill of dishing out those orgasms. I think that she would definitely be willing to try karezza. In fact, I don't think she would be against anything I might suggest for sex. But, put into actual practice what is the probability for success?

So, what is my plan for now? Right now I am maintaining my long distance relationship with AWL. I am learning how to stabilize my post divorce life, outside of the realm of sex and relationships. So I tell her I love her, because I do. And she waits patiently.

*Let me qualify before I continue calling my ex-wife SoullessBitch. I do recognize that people with these disorders have a disease, and they are able to feel certain things, like fear, and the pain of not having a full range of real emotions. I do recognize there is some humanness there, but I vent by name calling nonetheless.

Just

I've been thinking about your phyopathic post for a couple of days and was planning on responding. Now that you've posted again and explained a bit more I have a few thoughts. I'll extrapolate a bit and hopefully be somewhat accurate.

When you say you have a fear of attracting a similar psychopathic/narcissistic relationship and wonder if karezza can be used as a sort of litmus test to prevent a repeat performance, I would suggest that the issue is slightly different. Its not so much about attracting a person that may not be good for you but about your habit of overiding your inner signals when you do. I would go as far as to suggest that you attract this type of woman to awaken a part of yourself that you're ignoring. But rather than see it as a growth experience you find yourself being victimized by it, which by its nature begs to be repeated.

All of us have natural mechanisims that tell us when a situation or circumstance is not good for us. In some areas though,we hear that little voice, and instead of heading it we overide or ignore it in some way. As we repeatedly overide that voice, the voice gets quieter and quieter until we are numb to its warnings. You dont so much have a blind spot for selfish, self absorbed woman but rather a blind spot to your own inner voice around selfish, self absorbed women. If, what I'm saying is true , then using karezza would not work in the long run. Karezza is just another one of life's situations that gives you feedback as to how your partner is interacting with you. Every moment you are in a interaction with your partner, whether they are vertical or horizontal, you are receiving all the information you need to tell you if this is a healthy or unheathy situation. Karezza would just be one more of these interactions.

I'm sure you know people or have friends that get themselves into unhealthy situations, that you look at and go, "I wouldnt put up with that for one minute". The difference between you and them is you actively listen to the voice that tells you this is unhealthy and they most likely dont. They overide or ignore that voice. Hell, we all do it. This is our area of growth.

If I were you this is what I would do. Look at your existing relationship and feel into it. Review your interactions with this Lady, look for a "yes" or a "no" feeling. A "yes" feeling has an expansion to it. You can feel it in your chest, things open up in this area. A "no" or "the red flag" feeling has a contraction to it. Your chest tightens. Often your body will give you clearer messages than your mind will, especially if you've had a habit of not listening yourself. When you feel a "no" take a close look and see if its a genuine "red flag" or your fears taking over. Since you're afraid of having another "bad" relationship there's bound to be inaccurate red flags going off, this is natural for all of us. If you begin to listen to your own inner voice then over time you will discern between fear and those healthy warnings.

No matter what woman you get involved with consider it your opportunity to work on this part of yourself. Also, good relationships allow real space for dialog. Can you talk to her, share your fears? Can you put everything out on the table and discuss these feelings and fears? Can you tell her youre coming off a bad relationship and need to talk about this stuff? Does she listen and hold space for you? Will she talk about her stuff as well? My rule in any intimate relationship is, if I cant talk when its "crunchy" then its not a long term relationship that I'll put serious effort into. In my book EVERYTHING has to be able to be expressed otherwise it becomes a secret, and secrets are the death of a healthy intimate relationship. Every relationship has red flags in it. I find its not about getting rid of them or not entering a relationship with them, (as long as there arent too many), but how you work with them when they come up. I've said this line before, and it goes like this. The mark of a healthy long term relationship is both partners willingness to tolerate discomfort for growth. After 28 years this is what keeps us together. Karezza is how we express and enhance that togetherness.

I recommend letting karezza be the expression of the connectedness you feel with your partner rather than a method for shinning the light on her dark places.

smorgasbord

I hope to see AWL again before the year is out, but I am not sure that we can be together permanently until next year some time.

One of the things I had to deal with when I was with AWL was my lust for other women. I was constantly looking at other women, looking at younger, prettier, whatever. I've always looked at women, but it was never this bad with me before, not even when I was with SB. Originally I just attributed it to the new culture that I was experiencing and the apparent smorgasbord of beautiful women. I realize now, after reading the brain science section of this sight, that it may have had to do with the hotness of the sex we were having and frequency of ejaculation*.
Of course I realized that I could not live like this. Could I attract a younger and prettier woman? Probably.
But I was also aware that that solution would not last. So, that is one of the factors that has brought me back to my home country without the lovely Acrobat. I've had myself scared to death by my own desires.

*There is also another factor involved. It is the circumcision thing again. Men are designed to have their glans covered until it is needed. Having the glans uncovered gives the brain a certain mis cue, thinking that sex should be happening. It definitely gets in the way of clear thinking when confronted by feminine beauty.
My old man used to tell me when I was a kid "If you don't know what it's for, just leave it alone!" Now I look down at my scarred penis and say "Well what the hell then?..."

Other than orgasmic fallout,

Other than orgasmic fallout, could it be that AWL led you to see yourself as higher value and thus more eligible for the other women you were seeing?

Circumcision diminishes pleasure, but you think skips over the additional bonding time that might be easier if not circumcised? I have to think about that more. Perhaps circumcision was a clever tool to promote infidelity and thus more babies at a time when survival was harder. These old wise men might have been more knowledgeable and better at manipulating society than we give them credit for. Just extrapolate back from what is possible now.

freedom, You might be on to

freedom,
You might be on to something with the higher value thing. AWL definitely gave me the feeling that she felt she had won the dating lottery. Conversely though, I would have a difficult time dating someone of her beauty here in English speaking North America. So, I tried to convince myself with the logical portion of my brain that we were even on that score.

Circumcision is most definitely a tool used by manipulators of society. After all, Yahweh's promise to Abram was to make his descendants number as the stars; then he proceeded to slice his anatomy. [schock]
Circumcision is just as much brain surgery as it is genital mutilation. It puts lust into overdrive for some of us.
I don't want to attack the Abrahamic religions though. I just wish they would reexamine the doctrines of mutilation.

Darryl's post

After reading Darryl's post a few more times I realize that I need open my mind a little bit more for AWL to see what is going on in there.

That is my objective for the week. Let her know my feelings and how I intend to work through my own obstacles. Then it is a matter of my paying attention to the feedback that I get from her.

Does anyone know of a good karezza text in Spanish? AWL's native tongue is Spanish. I am hoping we can learn this together.

HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY

If you really love this girl and she feels the same way too, then your relationship must be anchored in TRUST, HONESTY and LOYALTY.

It is quite understandable that you are afraid that AWL might also be like SB... Or something to that matter. But if I may suggest, you should be totally honest with her. Like what Darryl said, Karezza is not a litmus test to see how far your relationship will go. If you are totally honest with her and she loves you so much too, then everything you say to her, she will accept it. And if she says things to you (even if they are not complimenting) then don't get offended. You are honest with each other so that you can meet halfway. If you are both HONEST with each other, then TRUST and LOYALTY will follow.

Karezza, I believe in the few days that I have learned, is an expression of love. Not just the act of MAKING LOVE, but the sharing of LOVE energies with your partner. To show your love to your partner is to LOVE every part of her. That every touch would send bliss not only to you but to her as well. To give and receive LOVE.

Good luck with working your way through your obstacles.
And we hope the Reuniting community can learn and help you too.

My answer to your question

Hmm, i had a long term relationship with a bpd. While she's not a psychopath, she does have a serious mental disability.

We never engaged in Karezza in the long term, however, we sure had Karezza moments where we connected deeply. It wasn't a fake for either of us. You can subtley feel when someone is faking because they become inconsistent over time (i had a lot of experience with this).

So i would say that the ability to feel karezza type moments is available to those with a mental disorder.

Be true to yourself mate, take responsibilty for your own life and not for anyone elses (especially a partner!)

Take care,
Westgate

A bit of a time gap here

For anyone that was interested, I apologize for the time gap.

To recap: I had been corresponding with the woman I called "the Acrobatic Wonder Lover."

Anyway it turned out that AWL wasn't keen on the idea of Karezza, which I had hoped would solve some of the brain chemistry issues I thought I was having. In her desperation she had agreed to try it, but I could tell her heart wasn't in it. And, I felt that she was carrying some tension in the relationship. So I was able to peacefully end it, but with some heartache for both of us.

Here is the new news: I am travelling out of country again. I'll be meeting with a very pleasant woman. She seems to be agreeable to what I call a "pre Karezza pajama party." There will be no sex(planned), but lots of cuddling. We are going to talk about it more.

This gal is someone that I had been corresponding with prior to AWL. We have rekindled our relationship, but we are planning together to develop the relationship slowly.

I appreciate everbody that has chimed in on my blog. I think I've learned a few things.

I don't know what the "pajama party" is going to be like for me. I am a little bit worried about becoming too stimulated without release. After all, I tend to "strike wood" just reading her emails, and shes just talking about the weather!

Any expert cuddlers out there?

Things went ok, but there's this one thing...

OK, I spent some time with the new lady over the weekend. We had planned an overnight "pajama party". We never did do the overnighter, but we did spend a pretty good amount of time cuddling. Things did develop into some heated kissing. I guess we contained it well enough for the first try, though.
Here's the thing. Chest implants. When I was with her I realized that she had implants. This is something I've never had a taste for. Sure they look real impressive, but the real thing has a better feel. When put my head on her chest it felt like something was in the way!
I like everything else about this woman! She works in media, and I think the boob job may have been just a career move. She does not seem vain at all.

Of course we all learn to accept our partners imperfections. And maybe it seems strange to some that I am disturbed by this. I guess I'll learn to like this but I'm not sure.

probably a non issue

I think the boobs were just something that I hadn't thought about going in. I got a little blindsided by it but I'm ok with it now. I'm pretty content with this gal.
I know she's willing to accept the imperfect me that I am.

You are probably right Marnia. I really hope this is the gal that I am with for the rest of my life. I think when the time comes for replacement then I'll suggest letting them go or at least taking them down a notch.

This is the one.

I've built a long distance relationship with the New Gal. We've decided to make a real relationship out of this and we are talking marriage and karezza. (Thank you, Marnia)

We've only been together in person the one weekend. I am returning to her permanently in three weeks. So, we are hoping to do karezza from the very begining.

We have a lot of desire for each other. Of course we know the basics of karezza. But we are both a bit worried about the pent up sexual energy and how our bodies will react.

I suspect that it will be easiest to start into karezza at the begining, as opposed to doing conventional sex and then having to readjust.

Any experiences with karezza from day 1 out there?

Gary and I did this

when we got together. The deal was, "Let's try this for three weeks, and then see if we want to mix in conventional sex." He was astonished by the results, so we stuck with it except for the odd, inadvertent orgasm.

It's kind of fun to do karezza with all that honeymoon neurochemistry flying around. Just take it slow. You know about the Exchanges in the back of the book, right? If you think they would help (their goal is to make going slow into a fun game of sorts), I can email them to you. Just send me a PM.

Thank you Marnia

I've already got the book, though. The first exchanges do not involve penetrative sex. I am not sure that we will be able to wait!
On the other hand, I have never been able to last very long after a sexual dry spell. So, I think avoiding orgasm will be difficult if we do have penetrative sex.

I think that we will try the exchanges, but not neccessarily in order. I think we will find what we are comfortable with.

I am hoping that the honeymoon neurochemistry will negate any slip ups.

This one is falling apart!

Everything has gone amuck! New Gal decided that she did not want Karezza. Well OK. So we tried conventional sex a couple of times. It wasn't especially good, but just as much my fault as hers.
I have figured out that this lady is just plain afraid of intimacy! It is a horrible situation for both of us! She will say that she loves me, and then tells me she wants to sleep in separate beds! She looks for excuses not to be together!
I have had some enjoyable times cuddling and talking with her. But, for example, she would not accept the simple favor of a foot bath and told me that it was too intimate.
The sad thing is that I have already fallen in love. It is in my heart that I want to help this woman deal with whatever is holding her back. I realize that I cannot do this unless she is willing though. So my solution now is to ask her to get help or I leave.

*sigh*

It's interesting that our nervous systems see conventional sex as less intimate than karezza-style intimacy.

Not sure how long you two have been together, but the key to bonding behaviors are daily and comforting. So maybe you could stick to the kinds of touch she is comfortable with (let her choose, but make sure you have a few minutes of it each day).

The goal is to "persuade" that old part of her brain that you are safe and...delicious. "Less is more" at first. Once she feels more bonded at that deeper level, I predict she'll be more open to other kinds of touch.

safe

I think that there is something about making her feel safe. We both enjoy the hugs. I will work with that for now.

Thank you, Marnia

Another N

It's weird about narcissism. I am attracted to the initial laughter and charm. Then the mask comes off. New gal turned out to be a severe narcissist, like my ex wife on steroids. I think I'll change her name to NX2.

Maybe I should have run at the first signs of danger. But, what were they? Fake tits? An appeal for pity for a difficult financial situation? Hey, times are hard.

I'm out now. I now have an answer to the initial question that I posted. Can karezza be used as a sort of test for narcissism? Sort of.

What I've learned is this: Narcissists are afraid of true intimacy. Sex is something they can handle if they have control of it. But, true intimacy is something that will cause a deathly fear.

NX2 had admitted to a fear of initmacy. This was my glimmer of hope. After all, would a true narcissist admit such a fault? If a person is well enough to admit a problem, then they should be capable of taking measures to cure it, right?

I offered her a chance at building that trust starting with a few minutes per day of gentle embrace. Initially she agreed.

But, after the first short session, the veil was lifted. Now, instead of a pattern of avoidance, I became a target for verbal abuse. I am everything that is wrong with her life.

Thank you for the advice, Marnia. Admittedly things did not work out as hoped. But, I think that the awareness that I now have makes the exit easier.

Just out of curiosity,

how often was she orgasming? The evidence is slowly gathering that both men and women can overdo the neurochemical "joy ride" of climax. It causes lingering neurochemical ripples that sometimes turn "Miss Right" into Medusa (you know...the mythical monster with the live snakes for hair???) and charming "Dr. Jekyll" into monstrous "Mr. Hyde."

My thought is that none of us really see each other unless we see each other in balance at a brain level.

Alas, biology conspires to get us so hot and bothered that crazy sex seems like a great idea. Afterward, the neurochemical ripples can make both partners a bit "off" and also very hyperreactive to any bad behavior.

I think you're right that karezza is the way around this. But it's tough to start slowly in today's dating world. And everyone who has been burned is somewhat afraid of intimacy...which makes it important to go even slower. Not easy to do. When I first talked to Gary about the karezza idea (before we started dating), I think he said something like, "I don't think I can do these daily Exchanges. I'm used to having sex and then getting to know someone." Ha ha! But eventually he agreed, and we actually had a delightful time with the Exchanges. Very playful, no pressure. Within a few days he was sleeping great - which he wasn't able to do with a partner for years before that. Powerful stuff.

Anyway, have a look at these two articles so you can see the latest science backing up what I'm talking about.

Women: Does Orgasm Give You A Hangover?

Men: Does Frequent Ejaculation Cause A Hangover?

Better luck next time. Keep trying!

 

 

hangover

I do not know how often she was orgasming. We only had sex a couple of times during the two weeks that I was with her. But, the way she handled herself in bed made me feel like I was just the 98.6 degrees love toy. I suspect that she pleasured herself regularly.

Maybe there is a connection between orgasm and narcissistic tendencies. The narcissism was definitely there though. Once I opened my eyes I saw it in everything that she did. The irrational lashing out, the way she treated her daughters (even her 23 year old med student daughter is treated as a small child), glibness, selfishness.

I still wish that I could help her. It's hard to accept the idea that some people simply do not want to change.

My thought is that you're

right about her habits...and their possible effects. You'd never know unless she got away from her "toys" and stuck to gentle lovemaking for a bit. If you're right...then you might be astonished at how much she would change...perhaps after a very ugly "withdrawal."

We've been taught that masturbation makes us "self-sufficient," but this is simply wrong. The benefits of sex are heavily associated with intercourse, not masturbation. See this short journal letter on the subject. Costa.Masturbation

In other words, she's trying her best to follow the mainstream advice...just like today's young guys trying to exhaust their frustration with Internet porn. The results can be really ugly, but most people have no idea there are frustration-soothing options out there. And when they get with a partner, they're so "hungry" they just try to devour each other...and often feel dissatisfied because they have numbed their normal sexual response and trained their brains to supernormal degrees of stimulation.

It's a nasty Catch 22, and it's up to lovers who "get it" to insist on taking things slowly...and being willing to explain to others why. I wrote my book to help with this, but I could point you to some shorter articles if you think there's any hope of getting through to her.

*sigh* Lovers could do so much to heal and comfort each other...but not while they're hooked on stimuli that get in the way of brain balance.

We are still talking

So I wrote an email to NX2 (of course I'll have to change her name again if this works). She seems open to continuing the relationship.

She knows that I am a believer when it comes to human touch as a path to healing. But, how do you tell a woman that she has to quit shliking? We don't even speak the same language to begin with!

I have always been an unconventional thinker. Narcissism is usually thought to be untreatable. I think that it can be treated. It is associated with problems in the amygdala. And if the amygdala can be rewired by bonding behaviors, then we are good!

The real challenge is to seed her brain with the idea of change.

Well...sounds like you think it's worth a try

What have you got to lose? The relationship sounds like it's dead in the water if you can't reach her mind.

You can PM me with her language. I might be able to find something in her language that will kickstart the discussion.

All of us are learning how to teach this information. Give it a shot. You may surprise yourself! Just know that if that is the problem, it will take time before she's back in balance. At least two weeks, and maybe more, depending upon how hooked she is.